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Tribal crafting (warcrafter / fletcher / bloodforge)

Training (bloodbowl / weights / anatomical theatre)

Freelancers (guild / drydock / labor cells)

Core industry (molten pit / factories / blacksmoke / outlander ghetto)

Advanced weaponries (damasc forge / steamfoundry / warrior society)

Caravanserai

Dreamwalkers (totem pole / temples / arcane forge)

Barbarian tech (ashglass / ancient foundry / nethermill / treesingers / fluid source / etc.)

[smakemupagus]

A few comments about the fletcher:

You can cut any rock into gems now, so it seems kinda silly and redundant to have the Obsidian Arrows and the Gem Arrows options. Unless there is a significant difference in power between the two arrow types, I'd suggest either remove the Obsidian Arrows reaction, or making the Gem Arrows take uncut gems so that players can't just make them out of basalt or whatever.

Secondly, the hotkey combo to build the Fletchery will instead bring up the DFhack Hotkey list. Might want to use another combo to build the thing.

Huh.  Interesting point.  It never occured to me that a player could use basalt (etc.) chabocons, that's a slightly not-intended loophole because the Gem Arrows are all "gemtip" material which is pretty good.  Similar loopholes in a number of other reactions that are meant to require gems specifically, I'm afraid.

[Boltgun]

Quick question, will the orc still be in the babysnatcher civs? I am trying to figure who will be attacking who in the future.

[Meph]

I thought that Orcs = Babysnatcher, no thief. and Succubi = Babysnatcher/Thief, grouped with the Titans and Necromancers. Demons appear to be more evil than just war-mongering orcs and goblins.

Open for discussion though.

[IndigoFenix]

I thought that Orcs = Babysnatcher, no thief. and Succubi = Babysnatcher/Thief, grouped with the Titans and Necromancers. Demons appear to be more evil than just war-mongering orcs and goblins.

Open for discussion though.

If so, will they trade with necromancers?  That could be an issue if undead attack everything in sight.

[Boltgun]

I thought that Orcs = Babysnatcher, no thief. and Succubi = Babysnatcher/Thief, grouped with the Titans and Necromancers. Demons appear to be more evil than just war-mongering orcs and goblins.

Open for discussion though.

If so, will they trade with necromancers?  That could be an issue if undead attack everything in sight.

If I remember a creature can be undead and still be friendly to the living. If the warlock and ghouls are not opposed to life that should be okay.

Babysnatchers and evil civs seems to be have issues anyway, I'll test this further.

[smakemupagus]

I thought that Orcs = Babysnatcher, no thief. and Succubi = Babysnatcher/Thief, grouped with the Titans and Necromancers. Demons appear to be more evil than just war-mongering orcs and goblins.
Open for discussion though.

Yep this is what I thought too.

Boltgun, you think there are new Babysnatchers issues in 0.40?  Please do let me know if you learn anything.

[Boltgun]

I thought that Orcs = Babysnatcher, no thief. and Succubi = Babysnatcher/Thief, grouped with the Titans and Necromancers. Demons appear to be more evil than just war-mongering orcs and goblins.
Open for discussion though.

Yep this is what I thought too.

Boltgun, you think there are new Babysnatchers issues in 0.40?  Please do let me know if you learn anything.

For now giving succubi babysnatcher cause them to be led by humans. Either babysnatcher is OP with a 100% rate like sieges were or I only broke my race and it tried to compensate, more info as I test this out.

[smakemupagus]

Oh I encountered this in the beginning too,

[POSITION:MONARCH]
   [NAME_MALE:great clanfather:great clanfathers]
   [NAME_FEMALE:great clanmother:great clanmothers]
   [NUMBER:1]
   [ALLOWED_CREATURE:ORC_TAIGA:ALL] <----------- fixes that at least in DF2012
   [...]

[Boltgun]

I understood that it did not work so well for warlocks however but that's a backup plan.

However if the humans overwhelm the civs, you'll be spending a lot of time sorting people.

[smakemupagus]

I understood that it did not work so well for warlocks however but that's a backup plan.
However if the humans overwhelm the civs, you'll be spending a lot of time sorting people.

I don't know about warlocks, it's worked perfectly for orcs (edit: only tested in DF2012).  I used to get ~25% foreign Great Clanfathers (this was back in MDFv1 or v2 probably), it has been 0% ever since adding that token.  Never had any migrants or other non-historical figure be a foreigner.

[Weirdsound]

A few comments about the fletcher:

You can cut any rock into gems now, so it seems kinda silly and redundant to have the Obsidian Arrows and the Gem Arrows options. Unless there is a significant difference in power between the two arrow types, I'd suggest either remove the Obsidian Arrows reaction, or making the Gem Arrows take uncut gems so that players can't just make them out of basalt or whatever.

Secondly, the hotkey combo to build the Fletchery will instead bring up the DFhack Hotkey list. Might want to use another combo to build the thing.

Huh.  Interesting point.  It never occured to me that a player could use basalt (etc.) chabocons, that's a slightly not-intended loophole because the Gem Arrows are all "gemtip" material which is pretty good.  Similar loopholes in a number of other reactions that are meant to require gems specifically, I'm afraid.

What else do the Orcs have that use gems? I am still far from having used every Orc Building. I know the Succubi have alot of gem reactions to abuse that loophole with though... The easyish fix would be just to ask for raw gems as opposed to cut ones, or failing that have Meph add a new reaction tag for 'true' cut gems.

[smakemupagus]

Yeah .. Requiring raw gems is not a perfect solution in general, because that also makes it considerably easier; cutting the gem is a step in the industry chain.  I will think about it.

reaction_orcfort.txt(433): [REAGENT:gem:1:SMALLGEM:NONE:INORGANIC:NONE]     // tribal crysknife
reaction_orcfort.txt(470): [REAGENT:gem:1:SMALLGEM:NONE:NONE:NONE] // tribal armor decoration
reaction_orcfort.txt(483): [REAGENT:gem:1:SMALLGEM:NONE:NONE:NONE] // tribal helm decoration
reaction_orcfort.txt(908): [REAGENT:C:4:SMALLGEM:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:NONE] // gemtip arrows
reaction_orcfort.txt(2690): [REAGENT:B:1:SMALLGEM:NONE:INORGANIC:NONE]    // icewind ritual
reaction_orcfort.txt(2941): [REAGENT:C:2:SMALLGEM:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:NONE] // gemtip javelins
reaction_orcfort.txt(4228): [REAGENT:gem:1:SMALLGEM:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:NONE] // magic missiles
reaction_orcfort.txt(4257): [REAGENT:gem:1:SMALLGEM:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:NONE] // bladeshards
reaction_orcfort.txt(4276): [REAGENT:B:2:SMALLGEM:NONE:INORGANIC:DIAMOND_CLEAR] // dreamcatcher (draugr)
reaction_orcfort.txt(4285): [REAGENT:B:2:SMALLGEM:NONE:INORGANIC:EMERALD] // dreamcatcher (medicine)
reaction_orcfort.txt(4294): [REAGENT:B:2:SMALLGEM:NONE:INORGANIC:SAPPHIRE] // dreamcatcher (storms)
reaction_orcfort.txt(4453): [REAGENT:D:2:SMALLGEM:NONE:INORGANIC:NONE] // mirrors for blaster musket (looted gnometech)
reaction_orcfort.txt(5331): [PRODUCT:100:1:SMALLGEM:NONE:INORGANIC:GLASS_RUBY] // rubyglass gem
reaction_orcfort.txt(5352): [PRODUCT:100:1:SMALLGEM:NONE:INORGANIC:GLASS_COBALT] // cobaltglass gem
reaction_orcfort.txt(6245): [REAGENT:B:2:SMALLGEM:NONE:NONE:NONE] // ancient foundry crossbow
reaction_orcfort.txt(6321): [REAGENT:B:2:SMALLGEM:NONE:NONE:NONE] //ancient foundry greatbow
reaction_orcfort.txt(6468): [REAGENT:gem:1:SMALLGEM:NONE:INORGANIC:NONE]   // spell research (obsidian spire library)
reaction_orcfort.txt(6477): [REAGENT:gem:1:SMALLGEM:NONE:INORGANIC:NONE]   // spell research
reaction_orcfort.txt(6486): [REAGENT:gem:1:SMALLGEM:NONE:INORGANIC:NONE]   // spell research

[Weirdsound]

Raw Gems make sense for some of the reactions, especially the arrows and decorations, where it is implied the Craftsorc will have to cut the gem into multiple smaller pieces anyway.

[than402]

you may also add a reaction class to the gem template and then require the gem reactions to use reagents with this class. gems are made using the gem template, stones are not.

[smakemupagus]

you may also add a reaction class to the gem template and then require the gem reactions to use reagents with this class. gems are made using the gem template, stones are not.

Agreed, I'll leave that decision to Meph though. I tend to try to go with the flow as far as changes to the core files are concerned.