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[Vitellozzo]

Definitely, man.
Anyway their lore is amazing and fits perfectly vanilla dwarves, which tend to slaughter and weaponize everything.
Those mushrooms... they were unlucky coming through dwarven history.

[Immortal-D]

I made a quick Gnome fortress just to test the 3 techs potentially being added here.  The more I played with those structures, the more I can see them being Dwarfey.  The only building I'm uncertain about is the Embassy.  Would certainly be nice to have a more indepth Liasion system, just not sure how it will feel ingame.  Though admittedly, my hesitation could simply be due to having the mindset of most Fortresses being last resorts and/or penal colonies, lol.  One question; have you decided to nix magic entirely?  I rather liked the idea of Dwarves being able to command geomancy, while leaving fire and blood to Succubi & Warlocks.

[Meph]

Not sure about magic yet. But mostly runes on items and golems.

The gnomish stuff needs some script updates before it works in the new DF.

Embassy I'd leave. Its useful. For more lore-friendlyness it could be called "Liaison's Office" or something like that.

[Vitellozzo]

What about boulder crabs? Do they work functionally with rock and egg laying?
Also, mountain tustox for 75 embark points and mule for 101, while cow is for 151 points? I though tustox were bigger cows, why do they cost so little in comparison?

[Immortal-D]

What about boulder crabs? Do they work functionally with rock and egg laying?
Also, mountain tustox for 75 embark points and mule for 101, while cow is for 151 points? I though tustox were bigger cows, why do they cost so little in comparison?

I suspect much of the Embark items will need their cost reevaluated.  As to Boulder Crabs, I tried in 6.2 with the posted fix, but they only ever laid Flux boulders, never eggs

[dukea42]

Should bronze go back to the smelter to be more vanilla friendly?  As it stands now the alloy is in the metallurgist which is requiring some iron to be available.  Bronze embarks are a bit more common I find and more relevant as a light armor with no iron-grade leathers.

[Meph]

What about boulder crabs? Do they work functionally with rock and egg laying?
Also, mountain tustox for 75 embark points and mule for 101, while cow is for 151 points? I though tustox were bigger cows, why do they cost so little in comparison?

They have the values that wannabehero gave them. Its his mod. They will be an optional module, once the GUI exists.

Should bronze go back to the smelter to be more vanilla friendly?  As it stands now the alloy is in the metallurgist which is requiring some iron to be available.  Bronze embarks are a bit more common I find and more relevant as a light armor with no iron-grade leathers.

This will be optional too. The finishing forge, when done, will also be able to make bronze, copper and tin without the need for fuel. Cold hammering. No need for fuel or iron to build a metallurgist, if you can do it the low tech way.

[Vitellozzo]

Code: [Select]

[CASTE:FEMALE]
[CASTE_NAME:female boulder crab:female boulder crabs:boulder crab]
[FEMALE]
[LAYS_EGGS]
[EGG_MATERIAL:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:EGGSHELL:SOLID]
[EGG_MATERIAL:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:EGG_WHITE:LIQUID]
[EGG_MATERIAL:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:EGG_YOLK:LIQUID]
[EGG_SIZE:37]
[CLUTCH_SIZE:3:7]
[CASTE:MALE]
[CASTE_NAME:boulder crab:boulder crabs:boulder crab]
[MALE]This is what boulder crab castes are alike. So no more boulder eggs.
But I think that the boulders are gained upon butchering them.

Code: [Select]

[EXTRA_BUTCHER_OBJECT:BY_CATEGORY:SHELL]
[EBO_ITEM:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:CRAB_STONE_DDD]But I cannot really understand most of raws.
That's is what I'm thinking because

Code: [Select]

[CREATURE:STONE_CRAB_DDD]
[DESCRIPTION:A large subterranean crustacean that can be found wandering caverns in search of food.  It is often domesticated by dwarves and harvested for its delicious meat and useful stony shell.  Those that live to a venerable age can grow truly massive in size]I really wonder what is that massive size and if they are weaponizable somehow.

Anyway, we must poke at wannabehero. Aside from the really wonderful pets, those embark costs are just broken.

Aaaaaand... the iron- and steelclad beasts were made by you? And also, the drakes, were made by you?
So now are they just gone or do they will return in a new beautiful shape upon dwarven completition?

[Tirion]

Soooo... sorry if I ask the obvious, this is MW for the new version?

[jcd]

Since its re-done right now, i thought i'd share some thoughts on dwarven technology.

Imo dwarves technologically are masters of BIG:
e.g. Big Cannons, Massive Siege Engines, Blast Furnaces, Great Pumps etc.
While gnomes can be more technologically advanced and create portable and intricate machinery, dwarves focus on big powerful lumbering hunks of metal, essentially overkills suited to mass production and mass destruction.

Of course, currently dwarves are already themed like that in MWDF but i would think that fleshing it out further benefits them and makes them more unique.
Thus they could co-design or share some thechnology with gnomes (how about gnomes and dwarves requiring each other's help in some massive designs? - dwarven metalworkers and masons cooperating with gnome tinkerers) and also have some designs of their own, maybe as efficient as the gnomish ones, but dwarves can only make the huge flavours of these.

Very vague, i know, but maybe you'd find it interesting.

[Immortal-D]

I have a pretty good head for numbers, if I do say so myself.  If someone can point me to the portion of raws that governs embark costs, I can try fine-tuning.

So no more boulder eggs.

You mean no more laying Flux boulders?  Shame we can't have 2 types of Eggs, as that was the Crab's entire utility.  Without laying flux stone, they aren't much different from other egg-farms like turkey and turtle.

Soooo... sorry if I ask the obvious, this is MW for the new version?

Correct, 40.23.

[Sardeed]

Looks good but i have the feeling the dwarves should get their gundpowder back, i don't know why but it looks right for dwarfs to have firearms, humans have bows and firearms and dwarfs have crossbows/javelin throwers and firearms since they lost all magic but could get the earth magic back (my favorit, least selfdestuctiion most ..other..destruction ) so it would be nice if they would get the advanced ranged stuff too, i count magic as that.

[IndigoFenix]

If dwarves get automatic machines, prospecting, and combat automatons, elves get druidic animal training, and humans can buy gnomish armor and weaponry, why would anybody bother playing as the poor, tiny gnomes themselves at all? 

The best way to encourage players to play as other races is by offering subtle hints to what playing as those races is like, but not actually allowing them to use their unique systems.  Players will naturally start by playing as the Dwarves, and then move on to Humans when they want to try something different (but not TOO different).  Humans are different from dwarves in some significant ways (above-ground construction, guilds, and variable religion system) but their fundamentals are still similar enough to Dwarves that players will know the game's basics from the start, and anyone who can construct an above-ground fortress as dwarves should be able to play humans effectively.  Humans have their market system, so players trying them out will see bits and pieces of what the other races have to offer: gnomish techno-weapons, succubus summoned monsters, elvish nature-altering spells, and so on.  So the human market will basically function an 'advertisement' for the more exotic races.  When players feel brave enough to try out a race with a whole new playing style, they can choose whichever race intrigues them the most.

One compromise, if you REALLY want to include the gnomish tech other races, is to make every individual machine (including the input/output tiles - meaning 3 separate purchases per machine) require an overpriced item that they would have to purchase from the gnomes.  This would allow curious players to test out the machinery late in the game, but prevent them from designing their entire production system around machinery without coughing up a hefty amount of dwarfbucks.  (The excavation site in its current state requires an oscilloscope to function, for instance.)

Just realized you removed the automatic factories after all. 

I still think the prospecting site should be removed, since it does completely change the way you go about mining.  (You'll basically be using it constantly, since it doesn't consume anything, and this will cause your fortress to spread out toward the places where rare gems happen to be, instead of being built around your own original design - it also really ruins that lovely feeling of coming across a rare material by chance in the dark, turning mining into more of a hunt.)  At the very least, let it require an oscilloscope, like it does for the gnomes (you can buy these in crates from the gnome caravan).  That'll keep players from making use of it in the early game.

I'll certainly update the Plump Helmet Men, and probably adjust them to keep them from being too good for food production.  They might need to be retested, since interaction AI is a little bit different in the new version.

[Vitellozzo]

If dwarves get automatic machines, prospecting, and combat automatons, elves get druidic animal training, and humans can buy gnomish armor and weaponry, why would anybody bother playing as the poor, tiny gnomes themselves at all? 

The best way to encourage players to play as other races is by offering subtle hints to what playing as those races is like, but not actually allowing them to use their unique systems.  Players will naturally start by playing as the Dwarves, and then move on to Humans when they want to try something different (but not TOO different).  Humans are different from dwarves in some significant ways (above-ground construction, guilds, and variable religion system) but their fundamentals are still similar enough to Dwarves that players will know the game's basics from the start, and anyone who can construct an above-ground fortress as dwarves should be able to play humans effectively.  Humans have their market system, so players trying them out will see bits and pieces of what the other races have to offer: gnomish techno-weapons, succubus summoned monsters, elvish nature-altering spells, and so on.  So the human market will basically function an 'advertisement' for the more exotic races.  When players feel brave enough to try out a race with a whole new playing style, they can choose whichever race intrigues them the most.

One compromise, if you REALLY want to include the gnomish tech other races, is to make every individual machine (including the input/output tiles - meaning 3 separate purchases per machine) require an overpriced item that they would have to purchase from the gnomes.  This would allow curious players to test out the machinery late in the game, but prevent them from designing their entire production system around machinery without coughing up a hefty amount of dwarfbucks.  (The excavation site in its current state requires an oscilloscope to function, for instance.)

Just realized you removed the automatic factories after all. 

I still think the prospecting site should be removed, since it does completely change the way you go about mining.  (You'll basically be using it constantly, since it doesn't consume anything, and this will cause your fortress to spread out toward the places where rare gems happen to be, instead of being built around your own original design - it also really ruins that lovely feeling of coming across a rare material by chance in the dark, turning mining into more of a hunt.)  At the very least, let it require an oscilloscope, like it does for the gnomes (you can buy these in crates from the gnome caravan).  That'll keep players from making use of it in the early game.

I'll certainly update the Plump Helmet Men, and probably adjust them to keep them from being too good for food production.  They might need to be retested, since interaction AI is a little bit different in the new version.

Yeah, agree with everything above me. Also <3 for plump helmet men, which were one of my favourite haven't-yet-tried options.

So no more boulder eggs.

You mean no more laying Flux boulders?  Shame we can't have 2 types of Eggs, as that was the Crab's entire utility.  Without laying flux stone, they aren't much different from other egg-farms like turkey and turtle.

Yep. That's the problem. I think I'll test more with males laying flux boulders, more info in the next minutes.


Also, a question: How should the humans have access to plugin mods, like succubi and orcish stuff? The other modders should also change human raws... but there could be conflicts when only succubi, or only orcs, or both are put in the whole MW mod.

:edit: So, I've tested the boulder crabs. It is indeed lost the ability to lay flux boulders, but with the heydude6 fix the males can now again lay marble and dolomite, to put other flux into play.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Rhys]

I think dwarfs should keep sawmills. Maybe they could also get ... "reduced" automated machines, only the basic ones like the stonecutter (and maybe the sawmill could be one).

This would give the dwarfes the...skilled engineer feeling while reserving the High-Tech feeling for the gnomes.