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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1570740 times)

Reelya

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18885 on: June 03, 2016, 11:01:53 pm »

AA can totally fuck up if it's applied as a band-aid at the final stage of the pipeline however.

Any sort of diversification effort needs to apply small biases at each stage in the pipeline, rather than one big bias right at the output end.

For example, say that you've decided that <target group> is seriously under-represented in your <education course>. So, you apply an aggressive Affirmative Action policy, by giving some sort of bonus points to the under-represented minority. So, therefore the number of <target group> is instantly increased to be representative. Quick fix solved all the problems, right?

Well not really. If there was any type of merit-based entrance criteria, you'd have to exclude e.g. the worst-scoring white people, and bring in a large number of black people who scored below the "previous worse" point. This means you've engineered a significant gap between the measured ability level of the lowest-remaining white person and the best-performing black person in the new admissions group. The net result is that the "average score" of white people in the class increased (because you excluded the bottom-scoring whites), and the average score of black people decreased (because you admitted a significant number of even lower-scoring blacks). This causes a racial division in average scores within the classroom, which can exacerbate or even create stereotypes about ability vs race, even when none existed before.

With TV writers, I'd ask, what's the racial breakdown of college-level writing courses? Does the hiring of professional writers mirror what's coming out of graduate schools?
https://www.clevelandfed.org/newsroom-and-events/publications/economic-trends/2015-economic-trends/et-20150331-racial-and-ethnic-differences-in-college-major-choice.aspx
If you take a look there, only about 2.8% of English majors are black in American universities. People can't hire people who aren't doing the appropriate courses of study.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 11:33:54 pm by Reelya »
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18886 on: June 03, 2016, 11:07:33 pm »

Well, of course institutionalized racism isn't going to be the major cause of most of this stuff. It's the subconscious stuff, the stuff that feeds into your perception based on something as simple as culture and environments. Not just on the employers' end, either; you'd be surprised how true self-fulfilling prophecies can be.
So any affirmative action policy that targets individual companies' hiring is probably aiming too narrow, if anything.

I think I suggested earlier some kind of programme in secondary+tertiary education to address that kind of racialised thinking, which in history has proven very effective at changing the public mindset in the long run.

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mainiac

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18887 on: June 03, 2016, 11:16:42 pm »

So hiring minorities is too radical but brainwashing is acceptable?
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Reelya

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18888 on: June 03, 2016, 11:36:12 pm »

But what proportion of English majors are black at college? It is one of the top 10 choices for white people, but much lower for black people:
https://www.clevelandfed.org/newsroom-and-events/publications/economic-trends/2015-economic-trends/et-20150331-racial-and-ethnic-differences-in-college-major-choice.aspx

2.8% of whites choose English majors. It's not clear, but somewhere less than 2.0% of black people choose it. Since blacks are 1/7th of the population, that would give an upper limit of about 9% black in English majors, but the actual figure is probably around 4-6%, I'm guessing.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 11:45:54 pm by Reelya »
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mainiac

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18889 on: June 03, 2016, 11:39:20 pm »

About 2.8% of English majors are black. 97% of hired English majors would be entirely proportional given that information.

Not really, no.  English majors do a lot of things after college besides write for the BBC.  BBC writers do a lot of things in college besides get English degrees.

And there's always the Uhura reason:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2015/07/31/how-martin-luther-king-jr-convinced-star-treks-uhura-to-stay-on-the-show/
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 11:41:30 pm by mainiac »
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Willfor

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18890 on: June 03, 2016, 11:48:51 pm »

I don't know what y'all are smoking to equate English majors with TV writers. The qualifications for being a TV writer is basically "can you write a decent* script" and "does someone with hiring power like you". With the oversaturation of people trying to be TV writers, there is literally no way to contest whether an individual case of discrimination has taken place. You would think that with so many good candidates to choose from, people would choose the best, and if you've watched a TV show in your life you would quickly realize that this is not the case. It's not 100% knowing the right person if you want a job, but it's probably somewhere in the high 80s to low 90s percentage-wise.

* decent is somewhat optional.
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Frumple

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18891 on: June 03, 2016, 11:50:23 pm »

Hired and english major in the same sentence. There's a combination I haven't heard in a long time :V

E: Though thinking on it a bit, I guess it being someone's go-to example really does show the economy is improving! English majors getting hired again, truly the wheels of capitalism turn once more.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 12:02:50 am by Frumple »
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mainiac

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18892 on: June 03, 2016, 11:53:25 pm »

if you've watched a TV show in your life you would quickly realize that this is not the case.
* decent is somewhat optional.

Why I never!  Are you saying that some TV writing isn't excellent?  Have you never even seen The Big Bang Theory?
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Strife26

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18893 on: June 04, 2016, 12:32:48 am »

Go start your own production studio, hire whoever you want, dodge the regulations that you want and can dodge, and make your fortune that way.

Crap sells.
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mainiac

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18894 on: June 04, 2016, 12:38:13 am »

Crap sells.

Whelp, there goes my innocence.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18895 on: June 04, 2016, 01:19:47 am »

It's not 100% knowing the right person if you want a job, but it's probably somewhere in the high 80s to low 90s percentage-wise.
Nepotism trumps all

Also:
So hiring minorities because they're part of a minority is too radical but telling minorities that they can be hired if they work for it is acceptable?
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Shadowlord

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18896 on: June 04, 2016, 01:48:59 am »

Also:
So hiring minorities because they're part of a minority is too radical but telling minorities that they can be hired if they work for it is acceptable?

I don't remember him saying that.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18897 on: June 04, 2016, 02:01:31 am »

No, but he likes misrepresenting what I say.
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Baffler

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18898 on: June 04, 2016, 02:34:15 am »

I almost forgot; some folks brought up scholarships ealier.

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Orange Wizard

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18899 on: June 04, 2016, 02:55:39 am »

We're not at fault for your government doing piss all welfare support.

E: Unless your point is that you're struggling because you're part of an ethnic minority, which would make more sense given the context, but I think you might be misattributing things here.
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Please don't shitpost, it lowers the quality of discourse
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