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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1570885 times)

TheDarkStar

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17625 on: May 09, 2016, 01:24:46 pm »

everything would be fixed if we just put the internet in change
meme party 2016

twitch for president 2016
direct democracy for everyone
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sluissa

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17626 on: May 09, 2016, 01:26:21 pm »

everything would be fixed if we just put the internet in change
meme party 2016

twitch for president 2016
direct democracy for everyone

Praise Helix 2016
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Harry Baldman

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17627 on: May 09, 2016, 01:28:14 pm »

Twitch Plays the House of Representatives, one letter at a time.
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mainiac

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17628 on: May 09, 2016, 01:31:50 pm »


Why do we need to? What actually matters is their stance in individual issues. Look at those rather than some abstracted average.

Or to put it a different way, you dont trust statistics because you would rather cherry pick.  Or rather you trust statistics until I point out that your chart says the opposite of what you want and then you dont trust statistics.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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sluissa

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17629 on: May 09, 2016, 01:36:01 pm »


Why do we need to? What actually matters is their stance in individual issues. Look at those rather than some abstracted average.

Or to put it a different way, you dont trust statistics because you would rather cherry pick.  Or rather you trust statistics until I point out that your chart says the opposite of what you want and then you dont trust statistics.

My chart was there entirely to point out how bullshit any sort of "grading" system is for politics. Or rather just to rile you up about the whole subject, because you love having a number to throw about that Hillary is exactly 89.2% liberal on the Political-Shit-O-Meter.
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mainiac

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17630 on: May 09, 2016, 01:38:39 pm »

My chart was there entirely to point out how bullshit any sort of "grading" system is for politics. Or rather just to rile you up about the whole subject, because you love having a number to throw about that Hillary is exactly 89.2% liberal on the Political-Shit-O-Meter.

No I dont really love having a number.  But I enjoy watching people get existential when faced with evidence they dont like.

You liked the chart when you thought it showed she was conservative.  As soon as she was compared to other liberals on the chart you suddenly didn't like it.  I find this amusing as hell.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Eagleon

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17631 on: May 09, 2016, 01:39:35 pm »

So it's not really cherry picking you care about then.
Come on, dude, I never even called Clinton a Republican. Why am I being pounced on for this? I even said that I would like to identify as a republican once they stop giving voice to neonazis and bible-thumping fascists, so if I did call her a republican, that can only be a good thing (to me) I truly believe the republican party is our generation's 'red scare,' and that's only going to be worse after Trump, win or lose - I remember vividly in the Bush years acting like anyone who was republican was some cartoon villain who cared about nothing but themselves, and that's patent nonsense, especially on a local level where you can actually go and talk to them and make your point heard over party lines.

No, cherry picking is not the issue, people can and should find central issues they agree with on for a president, because there's lots of other value judgements you can't foresee that the smallest thing affects. On that level, Clinton fails for me big time, but I understand completely if for other people she doesn't. My problem is that we're using scales like these to make overly broad purity tests for party talking points most of us non-existent independents think are false-dichotomies. Who honestly wants a bigger government?

Other people are calling her republican, and that's interesting to me, because in some ways (some ways) she's what I wish the republican party would be - fairly strong 'left' on social issues (though I wish she were closer to social-libertarian like Sanders), with a dash of economic sanity when it's needed, and metered investment in infrastructure and systemic issues when we're stable enough to support the chaos change causes.

For instance one of Clinton's talking points is putting major support behind Alzheimers research (2 billion/yr). That's 'non-partisan' (code for "good idea") so it's not talked about a lot, but it's actually a budgetary issue that very few people outside of politics (or within - no one wants to think about gradually losing their mind) are talking about. 1/3 of baby boomers are going to develop dementia. How we'll deal with such a massive spike is a very big problem that reaches past economics into widespread changes in the time we'll have to devote to our elders simply to avoid neglect. Truly one of the silver linings of yet another president who supported the annulment of our fourth amendment because terrorism.

You also seem to like to mix 'republican' with 'conservative.' Republicans by my standard are not very conservative at all in terms of their willingness to make sweeping thoughtless adjustments to the federal government to suit their state's voters. Any change causes problems, and both parties are being recklessly liberal with the policy they want to ram through to "fix" everything. Rather than let the economy recover, everyone wants to tinker because it's flashy and wins them votes for reelection. That kind of constant long-term instability can ruin people's lives worse than just doing nothing.
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helmacon

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17632 on: May 09, 2016, 01:44:44 pm »

whats wrong with charts? Sure, you should know thier stance on specific issues, but it's impossible to know thier every stance on every topic. New issues will arise when they are in office, and if you have a general sense of thier beliefs you can gauge how they would deal with it. Are they generally going to act in a way that would be considered "liberal" or "conservative" or ect...
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mainiac

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17634 on: May 09, 2016, 01:46:01 pm »

Why am I being pounced on for this?

Pounced on?  I just said I disagreed with your statement.  It's everyone else who is in this shitstorm.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

sluissa

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17635 on: May 09, 2016, 01:46:57 pm »

Is that the site which tells everyone that they are a libertarian even if they are actually socialists?

Yes, far more objective then DW-nominate.

You can pull random scores of political ideologies out of your ass so can I.

I admitted from the start it was random scores that largely meant nothing.

You're the one claiming they mean something.

IDGAF because any response by Clinton (Or Trump to a much lesser extent) that that sort of chart could be based off of is entirely ruined because they change their answers depending upon the audience... some more than others. Trump at least has been pretty consistent with his non-answers.
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sprinkled chariot

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17636 on: May 09, 2016, 01:47:40 pm »

Do you guys have own meaning of word liberal in america? ???
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sluissa

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17637 on: May 09, 2016, 01:51:57 pm »

whats wrong with charts? Sure, you should know thier stance on specific issues, but it's impossible to know thier every stance on every topic. New issues will arise when they are in office, and if you have a general sense of thier beliefs you can gauge how they would deal with it. Are they generally going to act in a way that would be considered "liberal" or "conservative" or ect...

The big issue with charts is exactly what I said... I can push for better healthcare and environmental policies while giving corporations massive cuts in taxes and remove their liability and still be considered a middle of the road democrat if you only looked at a chart. maybe one of those is more important to me than others...

I can be super anti-gay marriage and pro-life and for medicaid expansion and still qualify has a solid republican.

Charts are the lazy way out. If you know their stances on key policies you should be able to glean a politicians stances on other policies as well, at least as well and likely better than a chart will predict.
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Frumple

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17638 on: May 09, 2016, 01:52:46 pm »

Do you guys have own meaning of word liberal in america? ???
Yup.
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mainiac

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17639 on: May 09, 2016, 01:57:49 pm »

I can push for better healthcare and environmental policies while giving corporations massive cuts in taxes and remove their liability and still be considered a middle of the road democrat if you only looked at a chart.

I think the bigger issue is that a politician can vote for a more progressive tax system and people will cherry pick the counter examples.  And then they will claim "oh evidence doesn't matter" when anyone points out how ludicriously wrong they are.  All the while they bemoan that people are ill informed and prone to knee jerk assumptions based on ideology
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.
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