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[Frumple]

When it stops being sexist.

That said, seriously folks, this is not the bloody thread for this shit. If you really want to have this conversation for the dozenth time, please start a new thread for it.

[Sheb]

It's a problem that many people are trying to get addressed with the same exact methods.

Those methods must be shit then. When's the last time you've seen a news story about a TERF being chased out of office? And, remind me, how long has it been since Shirtgate?

Holy mother of double standard. Shirtguy wasn't chased out of office. He mostly had to withstand a couple of days of internet yelling at him until the hate machine moved on, and got a 24,000$ gift from the internet from his trouble (which, to his  credit, he gave to Universe Awareness).

When was the last time you remember a TERF receiving tens of thousands of dollars after being criticized for her views? :p

 

[mainiac]

When was the last time that you heard of a person expressing "TERF" views (I'm not even convinced those are a real thing).  Like in real life.

When was the last time you heard casual sexism with no consequences to the person expressing it.  Agains, in real life.

There's a reason why we are more concerned with one then the other...

[Cruxador]

When was the last time that you heard of a person expressing "TERF" views (I'm not even convinced those are a real thing).  Like in real life.

When was the last time you heard casual sexism with no consequences to the person expressing it.  Agains, in real life.

So you're saying neither of these things are things?

[Sheb]

He's saying that sexism is more prevalent than TERFism, so we should care about that one more.

[Orange Wizard]

He's saying that sexism is more prevalent than TERFism, so we should care about that one more.

Wait, sexism in what direction? Because the only time I really see sexism against women is on /r/theredpill. And, like, Saudi Arabia, but that's not really the point.
And hell, sexism against men isn't prevalent either. It's really just a whole bunch of insufferable whiners.

[Sheb]

He's saying that sexism is more prevalent than TERFism, so we should care about that one more.

Wait, sexism in what direction? Because the only time I really see sexism against women is on /r/theredpill. And, like, Saudi Arabia, but that's not really the point.
And hell, sexism against men isn't prevalent either. It's really just a whole bunch of insufferable whiners.

Well, then either you live in a really good place, or we don't have the same definition of sexism, or you're not really perceptive to it (To be fair, it's really easy to not notice it as a man. Compare the number of time you've witnessed street harassment to the number of time any of your female friends experienced it for exemple).

[Orange Wizard]

Harassing someone isn't sexism.

[Sheb]

Harassing someone isn't sexism.

Ok, then we don't have the same definition of sexism. I still posit that even so, it's way more common than you posit, you just don't notice it because you're not the target and are not primed to notice it.

BTW, what's your definition like? Because from what you said before ('Because the only time I really see sexism against women is on /r/theredpill.'), it sounds like you mean something like "It's only sexism if its people explicitely stating that women are an inferior gender", which seems incredibly restrictive. Do you see a problem with the statement 'Because the only time I really see racism against black is on stormfront.', since that one of the few place where you'll see people actually defending something like a hierarchy of races in explicit terms?

[Orange Wizard]

BTW, what's your definition like?

Sexism is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex

Basically that. Cribbed from wikipedia.

Because from what you said before ('Because the only time I really see sexism against women is on /r/theredpill.'), it sounds like you mean something like "It's only sexism if its people explicitely stating that women are an inferior gender", which seems incredibly restrictive.

Yeah, that would be restrictive. I don't think an all-inclusive definition is helpful, either, though. Immediately saying a person is sexist because he harassed a woman is silly and completely ignores any nuance to the situation.
I'm not saying sexism isn't a thing, I'm saying it's a minor and irrelevant thing for most people.

[Sheb]

Ok, do you agree that the fact that american police shoot black men at a disproportionate rate is evidence of racism? Isn't the fact that women suffer from street harassment at a disproportionate rate by the same logic evidence of sexism against women?

[Orange Wizard]

american police shoot black men

women suffer from street harassment

Top fuckin' kek

...

Ok, do you agree that the fact that american police shoot black men at a disproportionate rate is evidence of racism?

No. There are many other potential causes. Making a blanket statement of "US police kill blacks because of racism" is ignoring nuance.
Obvious factor is that blacks simply encounter armed police more often than other people. They have a higher arrest rate and prison population.

That said, I do think racism is an issue here. The numbers are too skewed for other explanations to tip the scales... but it's not the only factor.

Isn't the fact that women suffer from street harassment at a disproportionate rate by the same logic evidence of sexism against women?

No, because again, nuance. Also, what kind of harassment are we talking here? Because if you're including stuff like catcalling or being persistently come-on-to*, then the word "suffer" is too strong, especially when you just juxtaposed it with men being shot.
In any case, do we even have evidence that women suffer a disproportionate rate of harassment? In my (admittedly limited) experience it's roughly the same, but anecdotes, so whatever.

*As opposed to other kinds of harassment, but those are the only ones I could think of that could reasonably affect women more than men.

[Loud Whispers]

-Other explanations

• Committing more violent crime

How would that not tip the scales pretty fierce?

[Sheb]

american police shoot black men

women suffer from street harassment

Top fuckin' kek

...

?

No, because again, nuance. Also, what kind of harassment are we talking here? Because if you're including stuff like catcalling or being persistently come-on-to*, then the word "suffer" is too strong, especially when you just juxtaposed it with men being shot.

That's not the point. Your original statement wasn't about the fact that sexism is really harmful, but about the fact that "it didn't exist outside of r/theredpill". Aka, that a normal woman would not encounter it in her day-to-day live. Now you've shifted the goalposts and you're saying "I'm not saying sexism isn't a thing, I'm saying it's a minor and irrelevant thing for most people." I still think you're wrong (and I hope I can convince you of it before Vector pop by), so do you want to defend that position, or are you going to shif the goalposts again?

[Orange Wizard]

?

It's an hilarious juxtaposition. Men are getting shot dead, but women are suffering from harassment. Clearly they are victims of pervasive sexism.

That's not the point. Your original statement wasn't about the fact that sexism is really harmful, but about the fact that "it didn't exist outside of r/theredpill". Aka, that a normal woman would not encounter it in her day-to-day live. Now you've shifted the goalposts ...

Not really my intention. I was exaggerating in the first point, but I would expect that most women don't encounter sexism in their everyday lives. And when they do, it will be fairly inconsequential - like street harassment, which honestly barely qualifies. I suppose you could argue that the catcalling dudebro is sexist because he doesn't respect women, but it's more likely that he's just a disrespectful cunt in general.