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[mainiac]

I could not be more okay with you thinking that.

[Frumple]

... so are we actually talking US politics at this point, or is wierd just going bugnuts again? Because the few seconds I just spent skimming over the last few pages is strongly pointing to the latter, and it'd be really nice if y'all would just take it to PM or somethin'.

[Orange Wizard]

US foreign policy devolved into morality discussion devolved into semantics

[wierd]

If by bugnuts, you mean my insisting that mainiac answer properly, while he flings ad hominems like a politician, then yes.

The irony of that  given the thread, should be worthy of at least a chortle.

It grew out of a philosophical dispute about weather or not drone bombings are justifiable. I still hold that they are not.

[mainiac]

... so are we actually talking US politics at this point, or is wierd just going bugnuts again? Because the few seconds I just spent skimming over the last few pages is strongly pointing to the latter, and it'd be really nice if y'all would just take it to PM or somethin'.

You came in just at the end.  Ended with a laugh.

[wierd]

Mainiac and I disagree regularly.

I dont think either of us hold permanent emnity toward each other.

If he feels I am overly pedantic, he is at least partially justified.
Likewise, I feel I am partially justified for calling him on his prejudices.

So far, we have been able to kiss and make up.  I respect his intelligence, which is why I am aggressive with him.

[mainiac]

I guess the WORD POLICE are here to take away my WORDS.

Yeah, I mean you.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

What in the name of fuck has been going on in this thread?

[mainiac]

What in the name of fuck has been going on in this thread?

H: Words, words, words.
P: What is the matter, my lord?

[wierd]

Somebody seems to be upset, and somebody else has a raised eyebrow and a bemused expression.

Dunno what else.  Dont care.

So, about these recently declassified alien visitation reports... any takers?

[Reelya]

Computer programmers used to be overwhelmingly female.

I wanted to address this point. The usual short version is that women programmed computers, and that men decided they wanted in later, thus pushing women out. Unfortunately, that doesn't gel with more detailed accounts of what happened.

http://womensenews.org/2012/03/women-were-first-computer-programmers/

Goldstine and von Neumann spelled out a six-step programming process: (1) conceptualize the problem mathematically and physically, (2) select a numerical algorithm, (3) do a numerical analysis to determine the precision requirements and evaluate potential problems with approximation errors, (4) determine scale factors so that the mathematical expressions stay within the fixed range of the computer throughout the computation, (5) do the dynamic analysis to understand how the machine will execute jumps and substitutions during the course of a computation, and (6) do the static coding.

The first five of these tasks were to be done by the "planner," who was typically the scientific user and overwhelmingly was frequently male; the sixth task was to be carried out by coders.

Coding was regarded as a "static" process by Goldstine and von Neumann -- one that involved writing out the steps of a computation in a form that could be read by the machine, such as punching cards, or in the case of the ENIAC, plugging in cables and setting up switches. Thus, there was a division of labor envisioned that gave the highest-skilled work to the high-status male scientists and the lowest-skilled work to the low-status female coders.

So you can already see that it's wasn't quite what most accounts would have you believe. Level 6 "coder" basically flicked switches and made punch cards. Now, this turned out to be a much more complex task than anyone expected, and the women developed considerable expertise in this sub-field. So they deserve recognition.

But what happened next was not envious men who wanted into the field and pushed women out of equivalent roles: what happened was a new generation of machines which didn't need the ENIAC-era "coders" at all. What was left was levels 1-5 of the process (what we would call software design), which had been disproportionately male right from the start. The women were specialized in hardware operation basically, so many of their jobs became completely obsolete due to next-gen hardware and punch card machines.

[Orange Wizard]

So kinda like how women usually operated the telephone switchboard thingies?

[Reelya]

Yeah, women deserve more recognition for the complexities of manually operating the ENIAC-era computers, for sure. It was no mean feat, and it proves that women could cut it.

They hired the women as button pushers (job title "coders") with male scientists to write the actual programs. "Coder" then just meant to physically encode a program written by someone else (a man). This turned out to be much more complex than expected however, and the women became more like modern programmers, but this wasn't a preconceived notion, as you'd expect from hearing "programming used to be thought of as women's work". Even from the start it was expected that men would be the software designers.

i.e. there was never a point in history where anything we'd call "programming" (modern sense) was considered "women's work". That part is a myth. The fact that women did end up doing real programming on ENIAC, that's not a myth.

[Willfor]

Yes, OW, but if those telephone operators all had math degrees, and actually fully understood all of the calculations involved because they'd be doing them by hand before they were assigned to this task. The fact that several of them went on to be figures in the software community afterward by way of inventing the programming languages we use today is a bit of a testament to how well they were suited to their jobs.

[Vector]

My disabled (polio, both legs) granddad was a card-punching button-pusher.