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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1570794 times)

mainiac

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15645 on: March 27, 2016, 10:59:09 pm »

Like I said, you don't give a shit what people say about other candidates, it's only when someone insults the honor of Clinton-senpai.

I have on numerous occasions called people out for making lazy arguments against candidates I do not like.  You are making factually incorrect statements about me.

Let's start with H1B's, then. Sanders has called for raising H1B worker pay to that comparative with average US salaries, and called for an end to the exclusive employer clause.

So we have an issue that cuts across the democratic coalition.  Highly educated voters like restrictions on H1B visas.  Latino and Asian voters dont like people saying things that sound a heck of a lot like blaming them for stagnant wages.  (The small sample of highly educated Latino and Asian voters I know seem to be more in the second camp but that could just be small sample size).  Bernie Sanders pandered to one group at the expense of the other.  Hillary Clinton pandered to one group at the expense of the other.  You praise one and condemn the other.  You happen to be a member of one of the groups pandered to.

I think both candidates will do what is politically expedient but I am pretty sure that Clinton is going to do everything she can to make a pro-immigration policy politically expedient.  That is why Hillary Clinton shamelessly tries to talk about DREAMers as much as possible.  Her website promises to use executive orders to keep DREAMers in the country while Sander's does not.  Sander's website includes accusation that free trade suppresses wages in the immigration section.  It's walking a very clear line, make it clear you dont blame the immgrants but do everything else you can to show sympathy towards the concern.  At the end of the day, they're politicians, they're both running deliberately crafted messages.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 11:01:51 pm by mainiac »
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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RedKing

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15646 on: March 27, 2016, 11:20:59 pm »

Like I said, you don't give a shit what people say about other candidates, it's only when someone insults the honor of Clinton-senpai.

I have on numerous occasions called people out for making lazy arguments against candidates I do not like.  You are making factually incorrect statements about me.[citation needed]
Quote
Let's start with H1B's, then. Sanders has called for raising H1B worker pay to that comparative with average US salaries, and called for an end to the exclusive employer clause.

So we have an issue that cuts across the democratic coalition.  Highly educated voters like restrictions on H1B visas.  Latino and Asian voters dont like people saying things that sound a heck of a lot like blaming them for stagnant wages.  (The small sample of highly educated Latino and Asian voters I know seem to be more in the second camp but that could just be small sample size).  Bernie Sanders pandered to one group at the expense of the other.  Hillary Clinton pandered to one group at the expense of the other.  You praise one and condemn the other.  You happen to be a member of one of the groups pandered to.
Then those Latino and Asian voters (and possibly yourself) have no idea what H1Bs are then. These are not US citizens we're talking about, we're talking about literally offshoring your labor onshore. Importing cheap foreign workers and continuing to pay them substandard pay while holding them in a state of indentured servitude, where any noncompliance with the wishes of their corporate sponsors would result in the visa being revoked and them being unceremoniously shipped back home (and replaced with another worker who is just as disposable). This is an abuse of the H1B program, which was intended to let companies and universities bring in highly specialized expertise. Instead, what they're bringing in are bog-standard MCSEs, DBAs, and various sysadmins when there is no shortage of native US labor who could perform these jobs.

Quote
I think both candidates will do what is politically expedient but I am pretty sure that Clinton is going to do everything she can to make a pro-immigration policy politically expedient.  That is why Hillary Clinton shamelessly tries to talk about DREAMers as much as possible.  Her website promises to use executive orders to keep DREAMers in the country while Sander's does not.  Sander's website includes accusation that free trade suppresses wages in the immigration section.  It's walking a very clear line, make it clear you dont blame the immgrants but do everything else you can to show sympathy towards the concern.  At the end of the day, they're politicians, they're both running deliberately crafted messages.
When I see "politically expedient", I interpret that as "Hillary gets her donations from corporations, corporations LOVE the H1B cause it saves them money on labor costs, so the expedient thing she's going to do is leave the program untouched and even expand it."

Hence, major negative point against Clinton IMHO. This is not irrational hatred or animosity on behalf of Sanders, it's rational self-interest. Why vote for someone who is likely to make it EASIER for work to replace me with a guy from India (again)?

And so we're clear, I don't blame the Indian workers -- they're trying to make a better life for their families. If I had a deal where I could go work in another country for a few years and make ten times what I do now (and send a lot of that back home), I'd take it in a heartbeat. Even if the local going rate was thirty times what I make now. I've been spending the last few months training a relatively new PM in Chennai, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they wind up laying me off and replacing me with more guys like him, either offshore or stateside with an H1B (because my job can be done via telework, I'm more likely to lose the position to actual offshoring). This is where I agree with Trump on at least one thing -- we can't keep doing this.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 11:23:28 pm by RedKing »
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Amperzand

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15647 on: March 27, 2016, 11:30:39 pm »

I do agree with that. We need at least a reasonable portion of important industry to be locally sourced and run, and we need more good jobs. I tend to think that building walls and banning immigrants isn't the solution to that, but hey.
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Heiterverzweiflung. Not a legit German word so much as something a friend and I made up in German class once. "Carefree despair". When life is so fucked that you can't stop laughing.
http://www.collinsdictionary.com

mainiac

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15648 on: March 28, 2016, 12:08:57 am »

Like I said, you don't give a shit what people say about other candidates, it's only when someone insults the honor of Clinton-senpai.

I have on numerous occasions called people out for making lazy arguments against candidates I do not like.  You are making factually incorrect statements about me.[citation needed]

How about what I cited THE LAST FUCKING TIME you made this accusation?

I dont see what is particularly prostitutelike of Christie to make this endorsement.  Maybe Christie would prefer Kasich but that's not looking too likely.  Is Christie supposed to be endorsing Cruz or Rubio?

edit: I swear I didn't load of 538 until after I made this post.  I'm capable of thinking for myself, I promise.

Redking, I am rapidly reaching my give a shit alotment towards you.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

RedKing

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15649 on: March 28, 2016, 12:33:39 am »

Like I said, you don't give a shit what people say about other candidates, it's only when someone insults the honor of Clinton-senpai.

I have on numerous occasions called people out for making lazy arguments against candidates I do not like.  You are making factually incorrect statements about me.[citation needed]

How about what I cited THE LAST FUCKING TIME you made this accusation?

I dont see what is particularly prostitutelike of Christie to make this endorsement.  Maybe Christie would prefer Kasich but that's not looking too likely.  Is Christie supposed to be endorsing Cruz or Rubio?

edit: I swear I didn't load of 538 until after I made this post.  I'm capable of thinking for myself, I promise.

Redking, I am rapidly reaching my give a shit alotment towards you.
A. That is the first time I can recall you giving an example of your even-handedness.
B. You were pushing back on a comment that Powder Miner's father made, and which no one else was really supporting.
C. You act as though I give a fuck whether or not you give a fuck. If you're done with me, that's cool. Put me on ignore, filter me out, do whatever floats your boat.

Also, because it had to be done:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


But getting back to H1Bs, I would like to hear your response to this:
Quote
When I see "politically expedient", I interpret that as "Hillary gets her donations from corporations, corporations LOVE the H1B cause it saves them money on labor costs, so the expedient thing she's going to do is leave the program untouched and even expand it."

Hence, major negative point against Clinton IMHO. This is not irrational hatred or animosity on behalf of Sanders, it's rational self-interest. Why vote for someone who is likely to make it EASIER for work to replace me with a guy from India (again)?
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
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Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.

mainiac

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15650 on: March 28, 2016, 12:49:44 am »

Mainiac reminds people not to assume Trump is going to start a gestapo.
And I've said before, to find the 11 million illegals, you basically need a Gestapo, and they need some pretty potent police powers.

Be careful about extrapolating.  Maybe this happens.  Maybe he is just a liar and drops the idea.

Mainiac points out we shouldn't assume that where there is smoke there is fire with Warren:
Elizabeth Warrren was plagiarized FROM and then accused by the plagiarizing organization of plagiarizing.  For that you vilify her.

"Falsehood will fly, as it were, on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps, though sure, are slow and solemn, and she has neither vigour nor activity enough to pursue and overtake her enemy…"

Mainiac says people shouldn't bitch about "social justice warriors"
When your response to a complaint is to complain that other, vaguely people make a different complaint, you are strawmanning.

We should make the use of the phrases social justice warrior and politically correct punishable by death.

Mainiac's first impulse is that people shouldn't jump to assume the worst about Trump:
He fosters an attitude of violence in his supporters,

Pretty strong statement there.  And one that would be very easy to twist into a very subjective standard.

No, actually your link checks out.

Mainiac points out you shouldn't rush to call protesters violent:
Okay, but what is this about violent protesters?  Saying violent protesters sounds to me like a bunch of people came in and started beating people up.  It's an implied accusation.  Is there anything to substantiate that accusation?  If not I would suggest referring to them as loud protesters.

Redking, I can be rude, abrasive and condescending even at my most cheerful but I'm fucking honest even at my most adversarial.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15651 on: March 28, 2016, 12:53:32 am »

Maniac admirably maintains persecution complex in light of no one calling him dishonest.

Maniac predictably responds to this post saying our disagreements over Hilary "The Rod Ham" Clinton" inherently implies we are calling him a liar.
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mainiac

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15652 on: March 28, 2016, 01:03:33 am »

He questioned the factual validity of my statement about my prior behavior.  And now you are accusing me of playing the victim for providing evidence that the accusation against me was unfounded.

Just... what the hell.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

SalmonGod

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15653 on: March 28, 2016, 01:28:03 am »

Beyond that, there are places where radicalism is now necessary, such as the environment or the police state. We've already procrastinated away our luxury of measured gradualism on these things, and if the price is unrest it's one we've already agreed to pay, one way or another. The problem is that without someone willing to consider radicalism that price may just not end up being paid in the name of political amorphousness, thereby condemning us to the actual full impacts.

I agree with most of what MSH said here, but this part especially.  We're really at a historic make or break point.  We can't afford to tolerate status quo shit anymore. 

I would be willing to accept gradual change and long games that play out over generations on plenty of issues that may cause horrible amounts of death and suffering - things like the economy, war for profit, bigotry, etc - but don't cause irreversible damage to the survivability of the human race.  While it runs counter to my nature and I will normally put up a fight over it, I can hypothetically entertain the notion that, for example, it's better to accept millions of people dying of poverty-related causes every year while we slowly reform capitalism and international politics than to plunge the world into chaos by attacking the foundations of our economic functioning and power structures.  If someone could give me a cohesive argument on how it contributes to a long-term strategy instead of just a retreat, I could vote for the lesser of two evils on these issues.

But I really see the environment as a different beast here that should be forcing our hands.  Over the past few years, I've seen the tone of information on this subject shift from "We need to immediately re-structure our society to stop damaging the environment, because we're close to a point of no return" to "We've activated enough positive feedback mechanisms that if we ceased actively damaging the environment at this point, it wouldn't be enough.  We have to not only do that, but open the risky pandora's box of geo-engineering to start reversing the damage we've done if we're going to survive."

We have a time limit on tackling this issue, and it's within our lifetimes, if not the next couple decades. 

On other issues, we suffer a toll until it's fixed.  On the environment, we fix it within this time limit or we lose it all.  No more civilization.

And for quick comparison, Hillary has taken shitloads of money from fossil fuel donors, and has been actively involved in the expansion of fracking and offshore drilling.  While she acknowledges climate science, I see very little real action on the environment in her history.
On the other hand, I don't find anything in Bernie's closet, and note that he's introduced bills actively attacking fossil fuel subsidies.

But that's not even what's important.  Saving the environment doesn't just mean taking a tougher stance on legislation that directly addresses it.  It means really getting our shit together as a species.  My kids are not going to have a future, without a massive cultural shift in the next couple decades.  Economy, authoritarianism, bigotry, etc all feed into this.  First, because the environment is an abstract, distant feeling issue that people are not going to make a priority when they're worried about whether their bank account will support them today, or if bigotry is going to target them today.  Second, because getting the kind of change we need rolling is going to be a hell of a fight against existing power structures, and the common people do not have anywhere near the means to fight those power structures as they are now - rabidly violent, obsessively watchful, over-equipped beyond all reason, and hateful towards the left.

It is impossible to build the kind of movement we need in this environment.

And yeah, the president doesn't have much direct influence on those issues, but it would take unprecedented drastic legislation to effect meaningful change anyway (token pledges to reduce emissions by X amount over the next 30 years will not cut it), when we're expecting an obstructionary congress.  So in my opinion, we shouldn't even be worrying about which candidate might be able to quietly pull the right strings to scratch out some tiny bits of progress while the world unravels at an increasing pace around us.  We need to focus on building a massive cultural shift.  We need to shatter the overton window.  As the figurehead of the most powerful nation in the world, the president is the political figure with the most power to contribute to this.  Someone who is personally bland, and reeks of establishment and your standard repertoire of conflicting interests has no chance of doing this.  We need someone who will call bullshit with passion, display integrity, maintain focus, and trigger mass mobilization to fight for change on all fronts.  Someone who will openly denounce the mass surveillance, police oppression, and class warfare that prevents grassroots movement building, and will populate their administration and executive appointments with fighters, not corporate executives enjoying their revolving door.  Someone who will get people to start thinking about throwing their bodies on the gears.

Does Bernie have this capacity?  I don't know.  But he's the only candidate this year who I believe would be a step in this direction.  And if we're not going to take that step, then we need some other form of shock.  Mucking about with the status quo because we're afraid of things getting worse is literally just waiting to die.

I really don't have much hope, though.  My most realistic aspiration is to move to Canada, hope that things stay nice up there long enough for my kids to live out decent lives, and hope that they don't have kids of their own.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 01:38:48 am by SalmonGod »
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Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

FearfulJesuit

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15654 on: March 28, 2016, 02:18:25 am »

Maniac? Can it. Consider this your final warning before I ask you to leave the thread.
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

Willfor

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15655 on: March 28, 2016, 02:20:59 am »

I think you have completely and utterly misread what's going on if you blame mainiac solely for all this crap.
Agreeing with this poster.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15656 on: March 28, 2016, 02:22:15 am »

Wait, shit. That's what you get for moderating before your morning coffee. I'll lock for now and figure something out today.
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

FearfulJesuit

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15657 on: March 28, 2016, 09:51:29 am »

Thread unlocked. Please maintain composure; RedKing's PMed me, and he's taking a hiatus from the thread. While I'm aware that Mainiac isn't entirely responsible for the drama, it does seem that he attracts it for whatever reason. I would encourage everyone to think a bit about this while we slip back into a more subdued state of affairs.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 09:58:09 am by FearfulJesuit »
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

origamiscienceguy

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15658 on: March 28, 2016, 09:55:46 am »

John Kasich needs 2000% of the remaining delegates to win. And he is mad at cruz for not letting him win anything.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15659 on: March 28, 2016, 10:03:00 am »

He's the last establishment man standing. There's a very good reason for the establishment to keep its hat in the ring even if it knows it probably can't win: if Kasich drops, the establishment/moderate faction will see it as total loss of the party to insurgents. That'll fuel talk of a third-party GOP run months before the convention even gets underway, and the last thing the GOP establishment wants right now is more fractiousness.
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.
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