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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1580787 times)

TheBiggerFish

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15330 on: March 24, 2016, 12:13:15 am »

*waves airplane director strobe light thingies and directs the derail to the Mathematics Help thread*
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It has been determined that Trump is an average unladen swallow travelling northbound at his maximum sustainable speed of -3 Obama-cubits per second in the middle of a class 3 hurricane.

Dorsidwarf

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15331 on: March 24, 2016, 05:24:56 am »

1) If calculating a relativistic impact, you have to take account of the fact that it'll be causing air particles to fuse because they can't move away fast enough, and hence the cannonball will rapidly become a chunk of heavy plasma moving through the core of an airbust nuclear detonation (see XKCD "What-if")

2) I recently discovered s meme about Donald trump in my image folders making fun of his obsession with China
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15332 on: March 24, 2016, 08:47:13 am »

It's not that the system is broken, per se; it's just that it's expressly designed to allow the private enterprises to maximize their profits, which entails minimizing the operating costs, coverage, and quality of the service – which still isn't affordable enough for the poorest citizens. Anything less than a full demolition is not enough to "fix" the system. You cannot "tame" the industry and make it less exploitative/predatory by letting it loose in your bureaucratic maze – that would be like giving the Minotaur a brand new labyrinth to romp around in.
But you can lobby this complaint against any capitalist economy.  The communists did exactly that.  The fallacy was they assumed that all profit seeking behavior was destructive.  It's not.  Profit seeking behavior can have incentives that align with consumers.  Just go to any mall to see that.
The difference between malls and private hospitals is that people don't need hamburgers, 3D movies, Vuitton bags, etc. to survive. Profit-seeking behaviour is not necessarily destructive in itself, but applying it to vital services like health care is to maximize its destructive potential.

The problems with the healthcare industry was that the incentives of profit seeking didn't align with the patients.  They still dont align.  But just pointing that out misses the fact that the incentive problems are a lot, lot less bad.  The way an insurance company maximizes it's profit is to now treat people more efficiently rather then drop them.
I don't know enough about the U.S. system to tell if this kind of market optimism is really justifiable, but in the case of Sweden's health care reforms, these beneficial incentives have simply not materialized.

From the abstract:
Quote
The  main evidence-based  effects  of  these  markets  and  profit-driven  reforms  can  be summarized as follows: efficiency is typically reduced but rarely increased; profit and tax evasion are a drain on resources for health care; geographical and social inequities are widened while the number of tax-financed providers increases; patients with major multi-health problems are often given lower priority than patients with minor health problems; opportunities to control the quality of care are reduced; tax-financed private for-profit providers facilitate increased  private  financing; and market forces and commercial interests undermine the power of democratic institutions.

Incidentally, this type of fuckery is already evident in Finland as well, as the Swedish companies are trying to gain a foothold around here. First the biggest companies outcompete everyone with predatory pricing, and then they raise the prices to extortionate levels that will bankrupt the poorest municipalities and "force" the companies to shut down their unprofitable services in rural areas. The companies pay practically no taxes on their profits, and competent doctors are lured out of the dwindling public sector with promises of bigger pay by creative tax planning. And only a tiny fraction of the profits is ever reinvested into the companies to improve the abysmal quality of their services – the rest is laundered via the Channel Islands as tax-free "capital gains."

In short, the companies have zero incentive to not give the state and her taxpayers a deep dicking – the fruits are just too low-hanging and juicy to ignore. And this is not a bug, but an essential feature of the system: the right-wing visionaries behind these policies see nothing wrong with a little bit of dickery and tax evasion because taxes should not exist in the first place, and the clueless center-right liberals are blissfully duped by great promises of Magical Markets That Solve All Problems.

Although it's pretty tragic that American liberals want to solve the endemic diseases of the system with more of the same, the most ironic thing is that Uncle Bern keeps touting the Swedish model as The Way of the Future, while the actual system is rapidly becoming A Thing of the Past. Nothing can magically "fix" the system overnight, or in five years or five decades – it has to be torn down and smashed to pieces, like all of capitalism.
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Helgoland

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15333 on: March 24, 2016, 08:54:20 am »

The problems with the healthcare industry was that the incentives of profit seeking didn't align with the patients.  They still dont align.  But just pointing that out misses the fact that the incentive problems are a lot, lot less bad.  The way an insurance company maximizes it's profit is to now treat people more efficiently rather then drop them.
I don't know enough about the U.S. system to tell if this kind of market optimism is really justifiable, but in the case of Sweden's health care reforms, these beneficial incentives have simply not materialized.
I think mainiac's point is that the current system in the US is much less bad than the system they had there before - nothing more, nothing less. That the Swedes, who started at the other end of the spectrum, messed up by taking a step in the other direction is interesting, but fairly unrelated to what he said.
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mainiac

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15334 on: March 24, 2016, 08:54:55 am »

The ninja knows what's what!

I don't know enough about the U.S. system to tell if this kind of market optimism is really justifiable, but in the case of Sweden's health care reforms, these beneficial incentives have simply not materialized.

Sweden already has a socialized healthcare system that works.  Improving on that with a private healthcare system would be a very high bar to cross.  The US system is crap.  Going from crap to less crap is a much different challenge.

I'm not arguing for private health insurance as an ideal.  I'm pointing out that you said the reform did nothing when it helped millions of people.
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BFEL

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15335 on: March 24, 2016, 08:59:59 am »

because taxes should not exist in the first place

WUT.

Yeah, imma stop you right there, taxes have KINDA been entirely necessary to the progress of the human race into modern times. Maybe they aren't NICE and they've CERTAINLY been exploited, but we literally would still be in tribes if they never existed in the first place.

Now you can make an arguement that we should be moving to get rid of them NOW, but only if you have a better idea for how to keep things like say...socialized health care, welfare/social security, public schools, etc. funded and operating.
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Helgoland

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15336 on: March 24, 2016, 09:01:04 am »

I think he was being hyperbolic.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15337 on: March 24, 2016, 09:01:51 am »

That's not his argument, that's a libertarian/objectivist argument.
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chaoticag

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15338 on: March 24, 2016, 09:02:13 am »

Wasn't he pointing out that the people that bring these bills forward see nothing wrong with tax evasion because they themselves think that taxes should not exist? I don't think anyone other than Kansas is advocating removing taxes.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15339 on: March 24, 2016, 09:04:00 am »

Maybe include the folks who want to eradicate income tax and replace it with sales tax or a "tithe" or etc.
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BFEL

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15340 on: March 24, 2016, 09:05:16 am »

Wasn't he pointing out that the people that bring these bills forward see nothing wrong with tax evasion because they themselves think that taxes should not exist? I don't think anyone other than Kansas is advocating removing taxes.
Oh. If so I misread it.

But yeah, anyone who doesn't think taxes shoulda been invented clearly doesn't realize the things they FIXED.
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15341 on: March 24, 2016, 09:33:02 am »

The ninja knows what's what!

I don't know enough about the U.S. system to tell if this kind of market optimism is really justifiable, but in the case of Sweden's health care reforms, these beneficial incentives have simply not materialized.

Sweden already has a socialized healthcare system that works.  Improving on that with a private healthcare system would be a very high bar to cross.  The US system is crap.  Going from crap to less crap is a much different challenge.

I'm not arguing for private health insurance as an ideal.  I'm pointing out that you said the reform did nothing when it helped millions of people.
I'm being unfairly negative because my country's health care is being Americanized at an alarming rate, and certain liberals on both sides of the Atlantic (not you, but some) are still refusing to admit the essential faults of your system. I suppose a faltering step forward is better than nothing, but the long-term benefits are questionable if it's always followed by a few steps backward. And I suppose that a 25% reduction in the number of uninsured is a significant improvement, but just having a crummy insurance in a rickety co-op that might fold any minute is not by itself a very radical improvement in practical health care outcomes. The coverage and quality of services has not improved much, and if I had to pay a hefty premium, plus a $3000 deductible for every hospital visit, I'd seriously consider not taking the damn insurance and paying the doctor out of pocket. At the present prices, it would probably be cheaper in most instances.

EDIT:
Wasn't he pointing out that the people that bring these bills forward see nothing wrong with tax evasion because they themselves think that taxes should not exist? I don't think anyone other than Kansas is advocating removing taxes.
Oh. If so I misread it.

But yeah, anyone who doesn't think taxes shoulda been invented clearly doesn't realize the things they FIXED.
Haha, you try telling the Koch brothers that.
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Helgoland

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15342 on: March 24, 2016, 09:35:22 am »

I suppose a faltering step forward is better than nothing, but the long-term benefits are questionable if it's always followed by a few steps backward.
Did the American system take a few steps backward recently? I'm not aware of such a thing happening - maybe you're conflating Europe and the US again.
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sluissa

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15343 on: March 24, 2016, 09:55:14 am »

I suppose a faltering step forward is better than nothing, but the long-term benefits are questionable if it's always followed by a few steps backward.
Did the American system take a few steps backward recently? I'm not aware of such a thing happening - maybe you're conflating Europe and the US again.

The Republican congress and (until recently) conservative leaning Supreme court have been taking large and important chunks out of the Affordable Care Act since it was implemented. (And honestly even before with the number of concessions that had to be made just to get it to pass.)

I mean, obviously there are still parts of it that exist, so it's not even farther behind where we started... but we really didn't get very far at all.

I've seen it help people, I've heard grumbles from people who have to pay more (but honestly most of them can afford it) but I am one of those left behind by the whole system. I appreciate what it tried to do, but I personally fell through the cracks and can't get affordable coverage that does anything for me. Although I do have coverage, it's the same coverage I had before the ACA and anything the ACA offers me actually costs more, and either way I never dare go to the doctor because the deductible would bankrupt me. I basically only have it to keep myself from going into lifetime debt over a catastrophic illness rather than a short term deductible sized debt which I can see myself eventually paying off.
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Sheb

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15344 on: March 24, 2016, 09:56:19 am »

In which state do you live sluissa?

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