Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Shadowlord]

Israel's biggest newspaper endorsing him

> "biggest newspaper"
> actually a tabloid
> owned by Sheldon Adelson

Nice try.

Shonus: If he thought he was going to be invaded and lose, Kim Jong Un could still detonate his nukes in place and irradiate both Koreas for hundreds of years.

[mainiac]

but they have more than enough military strength to launch one and make one hell of a nasty fight out of it

And the threat of that war exists whether or not the war happens. We should look at the costs beyond the worst case scenario.  The best case scenario is that suddenly South Korea needs to massively increase it's defense spending to look strong now that they lack American backing.  Maybe they extend the draft and young adults in south korea have to spend another six months in military service.  That's not fun times for people living in South Korea.

[Reelya]

More on Trump policies = nazi ...

Trump has pretty much called out for his followers to turn to violence, expressing sadness that this has not happened yet.

And I've said before, to find the 11 million illegals, you basically need a Gestapo, and they need some pretty potent police powers. Since you're basically busting families, these powers would be massively abused (you'd have to be naive to believe abuse won't be widespread). Then once you've found people, you need to incarcerate them: even if Mexico is willing, processing the paperwork will take years. 11 million is 5.5x the current prison population, meaning either 6 times the prisons, or huge concentration camps.

Think guys like sheriff Joe Apaio, but thousands of them, and with massively disproportionate power over men women and children. One example: Joe's officers put a prostitute in an iron cage in the desert sun and refused her water, so she died of dehydration. Nobody got in any trouble for this. And you want to put entire families into the "care" of people like this? Frying hookers to death in the desert sun is on par with the Nazis. It's just on a different scale. If you give guys of the Joe Arpaio type the power of life and death over literal millions, you are definitely going to end with a humanitarian crisis of epic proportions.

[mainiac]

And I've said before, to find the 11 million illegals, you basically need a Gestapo, and they need some pretty potent police powers.

Be careful about extrapolating.  Maybe this happens.  Maybe he is just a liar and drops the idea.

[Reelya]

Whether or not Trump would actually enact his claimed policies is one matter. But we can debate whether the actual policies if enacted would end up with a nazi-like situation separately.

[mainiac]

Where has Trump 'laid the blame' of any race?

We have answered this question for you in the past.  Mexicans are rapists.  Pretty clearly blaming them for rape.

[Shadowlord]

Where has Trump 'laid the blame' of any race? Wanting to reduce illegal immigration isn't racist, and you can effectively do so without creating some sort of racist dystopia that people love to draw up (about all Hispanic people being rounded up into camps if they're not carrying proof of citizenship with them as they walk down the street, or other nonsense).

Why isn't he building a wall on the Canadian border, eh?

[mainiac]

Hard to do it with all the beavers.

[SaberToothTiger]

dam it

[Lord Shonus]

but they have more than enough military strength to launch one and make one hell of a nasty fight out of it

And the threat of that war exists whether or not the war happens. We should look at the costs beyond the worst case scenario.  The best case scenario is that suddenly South Korea needs to massively increase it's defense spending to look strong now that they lack American backing.  Maybe they extend the draft and young adults in south korea have to spend another six months in military service.  That's not fun times for people living in South Korea.

Precisely. Unless the DPRK is peacefully reabsorbed into the ROK (not likely to happen - the people on top live pretty well, and they're the ones you'd have to convince), collapses in a popular revolution (probable eventually, but not any time soon), or launches an invasion and gets conquered in the end (a war is unlikely to happen as the board sits, but is more unlikely to have any other outcome once it launches, as China would prefer a US ally on their border to another all-out war with the US and thus would not intervene the way they did in 1951), South Korea needs the US mutual defense pact, no matter how little either country likes it.

[Vector]

Jesus, this is a long and angry post. Sorry guys.

I suspect it's that Hitler was infamous for borrowing blood and soil rhetoric from Martin Heidegger, and at the moment, it feels like Trump is doing so also. Something to remember is that the German genocide was not something talked about explicitly in addresses. So-and-so made it clear who the "enemy" was, the "enemy" got registered, and then people started disappearing. That was that.

Something to think about is that the Holocaust was partially funded by Rockefeller money, the gas chamber plans were drafted in this country, and Hitler is on record praising the foundational work of the social darwinists here. That genocide was partially our genocide. It was not set in motion here because the US was seen as not having the logistical fortitude to kill people in mass (frankly, the country was just too damn big), but this country did perform forced sterilizations for a long time, use black people in medical experiments against their consent and without informing them (notably, for example, Henrietta Lacks), and so on and so forth.

If we, say, forced undocumented Mexicans to build internment camps and a wall as payment for their time in the US before deporting them, throw in the "disruptive" protesters and dissidents and registered "terrorist threat" Muslims "in order to protect our right to free speech," and then just happen to have a number of water safety accidents involved with them, would anyone be really surprised?

The situation now is not the same as it was back then. US infrastructure in general is much improved, and we have a social climate that likes very much to argue from a basis of biological determinism. The atmosphere was already ripe to blow, and now here's a fire.


I don't think saying "he is Hitler" is helpful or true. But saying: "He's running on a fascist platform, and the kind of fascism looks most like 1930s Germany, and prominent US thinkers and businessmen were known to be a partial architect of what happened there; there's space for it in our mode of thinking" can help us figure out what to do, and what to watch for, next.

It's not likely, for example, to have a "cultural revolution" here, because the country is already so populist and lowbrow in its culture and entertainments. Mass slaughter in the name of returning to greatness follows the Christian "fall from Eden" rhetoric. Has it happened yet? No, as long as we're not talking about what our increasingly militarized police force is already doing... to certain people.


Not everything is going to look exactly the same. A sequel isn't the same old book a second time. But there are harmonies.

And not just that--lots of these problems can go along without becoming violently toxic for a long time. They aren't a big deal. However, when Trump says he's going to build a wall and start a registry, I believe him. And that move is the start of some very hot water. You can't say "it's the same old thing" anymore.

It's not "just" racism. It's not "just" voters in certain districts being disenfranchised. It's not just a gender balance that's so off that the UN is sending folks in to investigate and being legitimately horrified. It's not just water crises. It's not just "right to discriminate" laws against LGBT people being passed in Missouri and Kentucky. It's not just the enormous number of abortion restrictions being passed in the past four years. It's not just the rise of the Tea Party and the religious right.

Now it's something else.


And for any of you who are saying--"I'm so tired of the status quo that I'll vote to disrupt it regardless of whether it brings fascism to this shore"--I'll say also: Are you ready to be conscripted and pressed into somebody else's murder? I would invite you to read The Drowned and the Saved and see whether you can stomach it. Read A Prayer for Katerina Horovitzova and see if you can stomach it. Read Poetry After Auschwitz. Watch Shoah and Numbered.

Give the younger set copies of Code Name Verity and Rose Under Fire; and tell them which side you'd like to be on.

Hell, there are a number of documentaries about the effects of the drone wars in the Middle East right now. Go on--watch them.

Hell, I know at least one person on this board who survived a genocide and talked about it here. I wouldn't badger them about it which is why I don't mention him by name, but you can read what's already been said and see if that's what you really want.

Anyone who invites in the specter of lurching bleeding death has a responsibility to look it in the fucking face, instead of saying "No further corruption is possible--there's nothing here worth saving--I abandon the way of hope. LOL, let it burn. It will be fun to watch."

So if you think it's fun to watch, then I invite you, sincerely--GO AND FUCKING WATCH IT. See if it's fun or not.


I'm not trying to say "A is exactly like B." Rather to say: "There is a productive comparison to be made between A and B. Get ready to protect somebody. I hope to god it's not necessary."

Why isn't he building a wall on the Canadian border, eh?

Political dissidents haven't started fleeing yet.


Also--just as a reminder--for years there's been more South Americans going out than in. This is known. The women and girls coming in are at an 85% likelihood to be raped on the way. The border camps we have going have blatant human rights abuses. People are still coming, because the thing they're fleeing from is worse. I don't think it's going to make anything better, to build this wall.

[Loud Whispers]

More on Trump policies = nazi ...
Trump has pretty much called out for his followers to turn to violence, expressing sadness that this has not happened yet.

"pretty much"
So he hasn't lol
Only case where I could find inferences was when people were trying to shut him down... And they did, even threatening to rape his female supporters
Like hell the right thing is to stand there and take it :P

And I've said before, to find the 11 million illegals, you basically need a Gestapo

"basically"
So you don't lol
Your government has the largest security bureau in the world by funding, second after China in numbers, this won't be an issue at all unless your 11 million illegals are all living innawds and are top sekrit commandos funded by the Papacy or some shit

So no

Particularly since how every other nation on the planet that has a net gain of illegal migration has a working border police, I severely doubt the USA doesn't already have their own

and they need some pretty potent police powers.

Not an issue, the powers given to your existing police are all border police need and more. Heck, I looked it up, you do already have border and immigration police. Obama expanded their powers. Thanks Obama!
Still not seeing the Hitler unless Obama is Hitler too, we Hitler, you Hitler, everyone Hitler!

Since you're basically busting families

"Basically"
Lol

these powers would be massively abused (you'd have to be naive to believe abuse won't be widespread).

Then sort that out whilst you sort out the people currently abusing American law

Then once you've found people, you need to incarcerate them: even if Mexico is willing, processing the paperwork will take years. 11 million is 5.5x the current prison population, meaning either 6 times the prisons, or huge concentration camps.

Deporting to Mexico is a bad idea as they'll just be on the wall in no time, with Americans helping them bypass border security as usual
One would wonder why you let so many illegal migrants into your country in the first place but that's in the past stupidity, boomers will die and bureaucracy will be the least of the problems to face

Think guys like sheriff Joe Apaio, but thousands of them, and with massively disproportionate power over men women and children. One example: Joe's officers put a prostitute in an iron cage in the desert sun and refused her water, so she died of dehydration. Nobody got in any trouble for this. And you want to put entire families into the "care" of people like this? Frying hookers to death in the desert sun is on par with the Nazis. It's just on a different scale. If you give guys of the Joe Arpaio type the power of life and death over literal millions, you are definitely going to end with a humanitarian crisis of epic proportions.

So we're taking a single case from the worst example who is being prosecuted to represent the hypothetical entirety, as American police are incapable of any restraint whatsoever

Sounds like a good excuse to start talking about the worst crime that doesn't get prosecuted done by illegal migrants then

[Reelya]

No, trump actually said that he was sad that the people at his rallies weren't violent enough with protesters. Actually said this. Examples sourced here:
http://mashable.com/2016/03/12/trump-rally-incite-violence/#4LFpWUSVAiqw

And if you're going to arrest 1/25th of the population of the entire country, you do need expansive new police powers to stop and search virtually everyone, bust into private residences (since a lot of housekeepers are illegals). And you end up with a new huge police bureaucracy with a "Papers Please" mentality and extensive checking of who is doing what, when and where. Say hello to massive surveillance. It's daft to suggest this could be achieved with "business as usual". You have to be brutal to get something like this done. It takes a Stalin, Mao, or Hitler level of population control.

[Drakale]

Also--just as a reminder--for years there's been more South Americans going out than in. This is known. The women and girls coming in are at an 85% likelihood to be raped on the way. The border camps we have going have blatant human rights abuses.

I'd like to see your sources for that, I find it hard to believe.

[mainiac]

I'd like to see your sources for that, I find it hard to believe.

If you see a source that confirms this, what effect, if any will it have on your views?