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[Vector]

I'm really talking about substantially worse behavior than you're talking about there, weird. When I'm talking about sexual harassment, I'm not talking "enjoying the view" or saying someone is a nice piece of ass behind their back or discussing periods at work. I really don't want to go into specifics because jesus christ, but um ... yeah.

Women are not physically violent.

Er. So this is false.


Just to be clear about this, I put a lot of effort into not being closed up alone in a room with a man ever, too. Like elevators, stairwells, etc. If someone's within 5 feet of me and I don't know them well, there's usually a part of me that's making a getaway plan. Because men basically feel free to touch me, take photos without asking permission, generally act megacreepy, etc., and I know that if anything happens to me, I'm going to be blamed. Not from "rumors" but from personal experience.

Every morning before I go out, I'm careful to wear three layers up top in order to look "proper." I don't wear anything above the knee anymore. A few weeks ago, a Muslim woman told me how much she loved my "style" 9_9 Sometimes I actually wish hijab was more mainstream in this country. I'm that tired of being harassed.


I think that there's selective pressure to look like you're "trying" to hire women, or at least, at the university I work at, that's basically been confirmed. They discriminate against female hires at the same time as they pretend very hard that they're ~committed to diversity~ but all of the women who they might hire are just "bad fits."

You know I never post in this topic, or post in topics related to this now sudden new topic. But don't you guys think you're getting way off topic here? These discussions never go anywhere good on here so why not let this go back to the election stuff?

That's probably smart.

Yeah, I concur. Ok, I'm done. Sorry for bringing it up again, dudes. I wanted to clarify my position, but I should have done that a long while back.

[wierd]

Vector--

Statistically, the random stranger is not going to physically or sexually assault you. Your boyfriend, or significant other is. This accounts for more than 70% of all reported cases.

Fear of a coworker feeling you up is irrational. There may be megacreeps who "really want to date you" and are social rejects that dont know how to not sound like a wannabe rapist-- but they are very unlikely to actually try anything.

If anything, having a female IT person enter the workforce is like seeing a magical unicorn. You are compelled to get closer and get to know them better, because of how rare and special they are. This attention is unwanted, and I understand that. Being the male in healthcare is like being the magical unicorn as well.  You would not believe the number of times my "statistically higher upper body strength" has been invoked. EG, the "Its easier for you, because you're a guy!" etc. (Nevermind that I am built like a 90lb computer wimp.) It gets old pretty quick when something heavy needs to be moved, and you happen to have a penis in a room full of vaginas. I dont have the word "Fork lift" tattooed on me, but this happens A LOT.

Existential fear of being sexually assaulted mostly comes from media messages. Much like the existential fear of being falsely accused of sexual misconduct does (and the life destroying consequences that this causes). It is my understanding that in most other countries, men and women dont fear each other this way, and they consider the US's hangups on gender to be confounding and stupid. 

I would rather we move away from the fear mongering, by not catering to the irrational fears.

It is NOT OK to have an irrational fear. It is doubly NOT OK to try to make having irrational fears be accepted by the mainstream, and triply NOT OK to have those irrational fears dictate policy.

My fear of being falsely accused of misconduct does not inhibit my ability to care for "notorious" residents-- I just take some precautions, and otherwise give them the best care I am able to provide. Your fear of being fondled in an elevator should prompt you to carry some pepper spray, or take self- defense course-- but otherwise not disturb your ability to enjoy an elevator ride with a stranger.

It's the difference between controlling your fears, and being controlled by them.

[O.Wilde]

Fear of a coworker feeling you up is irrational.

44% of women have had this happen to them. (Source)


And who are you to say 'Nobody is allowed to have irrational fears'? People can't be afraid of things anymore? Go get some therapy, people with phobias: You're irrational!

[wierd]

44% of cases is less than 50%.

Also note, that is less than 50% of ALL CASES, which is NOT THE SAME THING as "All encounters with men."
When you actually look at individual risk of this happening, you have a substantially higher risk of being in a fatal traffic accident, or drowning.

In short, you should be more afraid of crossing the street, or going to the public pool, than of having this happen to you.

And yes, that makes it irrational to dwell on.

Note:

Wearing your seatbelt before starting the car is good, healthful advice.
Being crippled with paralyzing anxiety and fear at the prospect of entering a car? Not so much.

Taking a self defense course, or carrying a personal defense item, like pepper spray is good healthful advice.
Being crippled with paralyzing anxiety and fear in the presence of the opposite gender? not so much.

[Rolan7]

Fear of a coworker feeling you up is irrational.

44% of women have had this happen to them. (Source)

A comment about how hot you look as you walk by a coworker's cube.

Oh nice, I would be part of the...
Wait, where did you even get 44% from...   Oh there, "unwanted touching and sexual advances."
Yes I was a victim of "murder and sexual advances".  Unwanted sexual advances even.

[Lord Shonus]

Vector has said more than once that Vector is reacting to threats personally experienced, not merely theoretical ones.

[Reelya]

33% of surveyed men reported sexual harassment in the workplace in a 12 month period. The numbers between genders are closer with surveys than they are with official complaints, which shows men face more ridicule and less belief when they say a woman sexually harassed them (e.g. men get a lot of "you should be grateful! woohoo!" stuff when they try and tell people about abuse from women).

Source:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201505/when-men-face-sexual-harassment

We do need to separate "happens to one gender" vs "happens to both genders". By ignoring half the data, we make a "gender issue" where it's really a "people issue". "men suck" instead of "people suck". The number of cases of men filing complaints and women being accused of sexual harassment is gradually increasing in recent years. This probably has to do with the changing power balance in the workplace. Perhaps the thing is that people given more authority have a tendency to misuse that for their own gratification, regardless of gender.

The experiences of either gender should never be dismissed. It's equally repulsive when it happens to anyone, to dismiss harassment of women because it "happens to men, too" is wrong. But so is to ignore it happening to men.

[wierd]

Thank you Reelya. That is exactly my point.

Gender reciprocity needs to be respected-- It's very much a Human Issue, not a "Man issue" or "Woman issue".

[Willfor]

Yes, we're not allowed to talk about women unless we're also talking about men.

Unless we're talking about men, and then it's perfectly acceptable to keep talking about men forever.

[smirk]

Statistically,

Using general statistics to tell a person that they are being irrational in their particular situation, especially in a messageboard-based diagnosis... might not be the best way to go, wierd 0_o

E: ninja'd -

Vector has said more than once that Vector is reacting to threats personally experienced, not merely theoretical ones.

I was going to suggest that this derail get moved to the progressive discussion thread but apparently that got locked while I was away. So. Y'know. Tread carefully.

[O.Wilde]

I am not going to continue this conversation, because I honestly can not believe that I have to explain that sexual fucking assault is something someone would want to avoid. Or the fact that almost half of women have been sexually assaulted physically at work is an issue.

Yes I was a victim of "murder and sexual advances".

Do you know how the word 'and' works? Because I promise you were not murdered.

[wierd]

"Sexual assault" covers everything from being brutally raped over the copy machine in a dark file room, to having your butt patted.

I have had my butt patted. I have been sexually assaulted at work.

Get over yourself O. Wilde. When a statistic covers such a wide territory, you can expect that it will collect a wide statistic of victims.

[My Name is Immaterial]

Vector has said more than once that Vector is reacting to threats personally experienced, not merely theoretical ones.

I was going to suggest that this derail get moved to the progressive discussion thread but apparently that got locked while I was away. So. Y'know. Tread carefully.

Yeah, this derail might need to move to PMs.

Yes I was a victim of "murder and sexual advances".

Do you know how the word 'and' works? Because I promise you were not murdered.

Spoiler: The only other thing I'm going to contribute to this conversation (click to show/hide)

[Reelya]

Yes, we're not allowed to talk about women unless we're also talking about men.

Unless we're talking about men, and then it's perfectly acceptable to keep talking about men forever.

That's not the point. Saying "women should get special protection because women face <problem X>" carries an implicit message that men don't face the same problem, thus don't deserve the same protections.

I don't want to get too far into it, but when the CDC added a "being made to penetrate" question to their sexual assault questionaire (the one used to get the 1 in 5 statistic for women), as many or more men say "yes" to the idea that they were forced to penetrate someone else against their will, as the women who say "yes" to the rape question. The wording of the two sections is almost identical (being given drink or drugs, verbal coercion etc), except for who is penetrating who.

So, in other words if you overlook "who has the penis" then the typical date-rape scenario with getting the other person blind drunk and just having their way with them is pretty much a gender-neutral occurrence.

[Willfor]

Yes, you're right, women getting protections completely prevents activists for men from getting the same protections as women are seeking.