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[Vector]

I wanted to say something else about the math discussion we were having. I needed to cool off a little.

I'm not a huge radical. I'm not trying to say "numbers of people in STEM must be equal." I think a lot of posters here are saying, however, that women are leaving STEM mostly because

a. They don't have the ability
b. They just aren't interested

And they're saying that the opposition wants to force women into something for which they just simply don't have the aptitude and inclination. "Why must women be forced to master mathematics."

(One good argument is that women are responsible for the education of their boys--at least initially--so if you want your sons to be well-educated, you had better'd educate your women. And if you think "there's not that much to arithmetic," I can tell you: clearly your mom didn't know that much math, baby.)

But I'm not arguing about any of that. I'm saying that women in STEM are having to put up with an absolutely absurd amount of sexist behavior, harassment, and just general awfulness. I don't want to go down the long list, nor am I saying "and therefore we must be careful of the lady's feefees because otherwise they will leave STEM."

But yes, I've been sexually harassed by a guy with tenure, and I've had people assume for me that I'd rather have a baby than a PhD (I mean, there's nothing wrong with that--but maybe they're wrong, hm), and I've experienced all kinds of bullshit. I'm still in STEM, by the way.

What I'm trying to say is that folks are being real assholes, systematically, and I would like it if population A stopped shitting on population B arbitrarily. Forget about the numbers for a minute, and the money, and all of that. What this is all about for me is that one group is being absolute bastards to another one for no reason. That's it. That's why you should support Women in STEM. Because you should support people when other people are treating them like crap.

I think we've already got an evangelical Christian who thinks they're chosen by God, don't we?

no see St. Joan actually WAS chosen by god

[wierd]

I have an interesting viewpoint on this.

Caveat, I am male.
 
What makes this interesting: I have worked in healthcare, giving resident care. (Something that is just as flip-flopped woman-dominated as STEM is to men. Ever tried to buy male scrubs? If you have, then you know that you end up shopping in the darkest corner of the uniform store, where there are WHOLE DEPARTMENTS dedicated to female scrubs.) I started in IT.

Here's what I learned. Women are just as bad as men. No, really. You girls are. I have seen everything from the "biggest bitch on campus" to the "OMG, her ass is so big and flabby", to the "Mmm.. Look at that man-candy.."

Having seen both sides of this coin, I can say clearly and without reservation that this is not a "Male only" problem. This is a human problem, in that both genders get "Comfortable" in settings where their gender is over-represented. (Seriously, I have seen sex-toy magazines passed around and discussed quite comfortably, among other things.)

As such, I am more than a bit hesitant to jump whole hog onto a plan of action that does not have suitable gender reciprocity in application.  Men arent allowed to look at boobies? Women can't look at asses. (men cant talk about porn? Women cant talk about sleazy romance novels and sex toys.) It's as simple as that.

[O.Wilde]

When's the last time you felt threatened (physically scared for your well-being, not just uncomforatable) by a woman based on your gender to the point where you felt like quitting your career?

I have seen everything from the "biggest bitch on campus" to the "OMG, her ass is so big and flabby", to the "Mmm.. Look at that man-candy.."

Has your input been ignored because you're male? Have your achievements been passed off to some other to claim as their own? Are your ideas eventually accepted but attributed to other people?

This is from 1992, but it's still very relevant. The glass escalator. The fact is, by the virtue of entering a female-dominated field, you're most likely getting preferential treatment within that field to 'balance' out the fact that you happen to be in the minority.

[wierd]

When's the last time you felt threatened (physically scared for your well-being, not just uncomforatable) by a woman based on your gender to the point where you felt like quitting your career?

I have seen everything from the "biggest bitch on campus" to the "OMG, her ass is so big and flabby", to the "Mmm.. Look at that man-candy.."

Has your input been ignored because you're male? Have your achievements been passed off to some other to claim as their own? Are your ideas eventually accepted but attributed to other people?

This is from 1992, but it's still very relevant. The glass escalator. The fact is, by the virtue of entering a female-dominated field, you're most likely getting preferential treatment within that field to 'balance' out the fact that you happen to be in the minority.

As a male in healthcare, I am a protected species. My employers wouldnt DARE try to fire me over something like that.

That aside, I have been harassed by female co-workers to the point that I changed shifts to get away from them. Women are not physically violent. They are conniving. It's a different kind of threatening. (Basically, they cant or wont engage in violence, so they engage in character assassination, and other nasty social antics, such as creating rumors, and telling outright lies. For instance, more than once on my prior shift assignment, I had a particular individual who will remain nameless fill out fraudulent safety and concern forms about how I cared for residents. If it werent for the fact that the senior staff has worked with me directly, and seen how I actually work with residents, I could have been in some very serious trouble. It made this individual angry as fuck that they didnt get their way.)

[O.Wilde]

My employers wouldnt DARE try to fire me over something like that.

What are you referring to?

[wierd]

Try to find some sex-based reason or rationale to avoid paying me equal wage, or to terminate my employment.

[sluissa]

When's the last time you felt threatened (physically scared for your well-being, not just uncomforatable) by a woman based on your gender to the point where you felt like quitting your career?

I have seen everything from the "biggest bitch on campus" to the "OMG, her ass is so big and flabby", to the "Mmm.. Look at that man-candy.."

Has your input been ignored because you're male? Have your achievements been passed off to some other to claim as their own? Are your ideas eventually accepted but attributed to other people?

This is from 1992, but it's still very relevant. The glass escalator. The fact is, by the virtue of entering a female-dominated field, you're most likely getting preferential treatment within that field to 'balance' out the fact that you happen to be in the minority.

How about all the time... Hell, part of my training was "Don't let yourself be alone in a closed room with a woman just so no misunderstandings can crop up." Unless it's someone I know very well or there are other witnesses in the room, I always prop the door open when I enter a room with one of my female coworkers. I'm constantly under fear that someone will either as a misunderstanding or in order to blackmail or some other nefarious purpose claim I did something to them and I'd end up in jail...

This is a real fear...

[O.Wilde]

Try to find some sex-based reason or rationale to avoid paying me equal wage, or to terminate my employment.

...Why?

I'm failing to see how that strengthens the argument that men have it just as bad as women in some areas.

[wierd]

When's the last time you felt threatened (physically scared for your well-being, not just uncomforatable) by a woman based on your gender to the point where you felt like quitting your career?

I have seen everything from the "biggest bitch on campus" to the "OMG, her ass is so big and flabby", to the "Mmm.. Look at that man-candy.."

Has your input been ignored because you're male? Have your achievements been passed off to some other to claim as their own? Are your ideas eventually accepted but attributed to other people?

This is from 1992, but it's still very relevant. The glass escalator. The fact is, by the virtue of entering a female-dominated field, you're most likely getting preferential treatment within that field to 'balance' out the fact that you happen to be in the minority.

How about all the time... Hell, part of my training was "Don't let yourself be alone in a closed room with a woman just so no misunderstandings can crop up." Unless it's someone I know very well or there are other witnesses in the room, I always prop the door open when I enter a room with one of my female coworkers. I'm constantly under fear that someone will either as a misunderstanding or in order to blackmail or some other nefarious purpose claim I did something to them and I'd end up in jail...

This is a real fear...

It is especially true in a healthcare setting, especially in the care of senior citizens, which is where I currently work.

ANY accusation of sexual misconduct is a FUCKING SERIOUS DEAL.  There are residents that have "histories" of making fraudulent claims of such misconduct. Having a penis paints a target on you like nobody will beleive. Unless you like being labled as a rapist attacking old ladies (without any proof), then you take extra special precautions, like not going into certain rooms alone, and leave doors WIDE OPEN when answering lights.

[Gunner-Chan]

You know I never post in this topic, or post in topics related to this now sudden new topic. But don't you guys think you're getting way off topic here? These discussions never go anywhere good on here so why not let this go back to the election stuff?

[sluissa]

You know I never post in this topic, or post in topics related to this now sudden new topic. But don't you guys think you're getting way off topic here? These discussions never go anywhere good on here so why not let this go back to the election stuff?

Ok, I'll put it in context of the election.

I'd rather be alone in a room with Trump than Clinton.

[O.Wilde]

You guys are afraid of jail, a woman in your position is afraid of getting raped, assaulted, or generally harassed.

Either way, you probably don't have to worry about going to jail. It's something like 1 in 50 rape cases that end with jail time, and that's legitimate ones.

You know I never post in this topic, or post in topics related to this now sudden new topic. But don't you guys think you're getting way off topic here? These discussions never go anywhere good on here so why not let this go back to the election stuff?

That's probably smart.

[wierd]

Try to find some sex-based reason or rationale to avoid paying me equal wage, or to terminate my employment.

...Why?

I'm failing to see how that strengthens the argument that men have it just as bad as women in some areas.

One of the major points in regard to STEM hiring of women, is that preferential hiring happens. (EG, the "we dont think you will be a good fit" line from HR, resulting in pretty much 100% male workforces-- That women WANT to enter STEM, but find it has artificial barriers to entry-- this being one of them.  I had no such barrier when I entered healthcare, and from what I have seen in IT, there is selective pressure TO HIRE female IT. Female IT is a protected species the way Male healthcare is.) The real issue is the social dynamic. It is VERY disturbing to have women oogle you. (it isnt so bad when you have a single admirer, but when the whole "girl wall" starts making remarks, it's bad, Mkay.) I can understand why women feel uncomfortable with catcall making guy walls. In the gender reversed world, the threat of physical violence is replaced with the existential threat of being falsely accused with no defense.

[wierd]

An unfounded accusation of rape or other sexual misconduct can ruin your life. It isn't fear of jail, it is fear of being unable to find employment, fear of self-insufficiency, and fear of social reprisals for something you would never even dream of doing.

The threat has real consequences, that cause real health problems. Stress is a leading cause of serious illness in the US, and this is a serious source of stress.

[Rolan7]

I think it was an important tangent, but G-C is probably right.

And Wilde, haven't you heard what happens to male supposed sex offenders in prison?  It's not the same, of course...  In prison you're not allowed to leave.