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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1571297 times)

Morrigi

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13770 on: March 07, 2016, 07:46:11 pm »

Yeah, too many people are just totally incapable of tolerating dissenting opinions without resorting to insults or even attempting to censor the opposition. The concept of civil debate in English-speaking countries is dying.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 07:48:03 pm by Morrigi »
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mainiac

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Re: On Politics
« Reply #13771 on: March 07, 2016, 07:47:46 pm »

Come to think of it, there's a nice parallel to societal power differences and sexism here*: For me as a dude it's easy to shrug off a sexist joke, because I'm protected from said sexism having any real impact on my life - but for a woman it's different, because that joke is just another facet of a way of thinking that impacts her heavily.

You could even say this extends to all power dynamics, not just matters of traditionally political topics.

And I gotta say, Covenant is right. We're all totally down (with the exception of Covenant and a few other more rightward-leaning forumites) with mocking the Republican field and casting aspersions like lawn darts.

Are we all totally down with it?  Just this past week someone was taking a dump on Christie and I tried to put the brakes on things and ask for evidence.  Turns out that in fact it the accusations of hypocrisy could be substantiated but I will proudly stand by my having put a foot down there.

And for the record, I ain't a fan of Christie.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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smjjames

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13772 on: March 07, 2016, 07:51:04 pm »

Yeah, too many people are just totally incapable of tolerating dissenting opinions without resorting to insults or even attempting to censor the opposition.

Particularily on the republican side, but yeah, it goes for both sides for many topics, like gun control for example. It's just the whole partisan divide that we've gotten ourselves into, which is more of a result of the discourse rather than the other way around.

The concept of civil debate in English-speaking countries is dying.

I don't know, the democrats are managing okay. Though it's partially that they don't have a huge lot of differences between each other. And actually, when Trump wasn't there, the republican debate was pretty civil, relatively. It's harder to keep things civil when theres seven candidates vying for attention.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 07:56:30 pm by smjjames »
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13773 on: March 07, 2016, 08:00:42 pm »

I myself wonder why people with more than a billion dollars in annual income keep working. You can't spend a billion dollars a year on your self no matter how hard you try. Anyone who wants more than a billion dollars is not healthy and isn't helping the economy, they're only locking up wealth in their bank account instead of letting it flow into the population.
Status games. Humans are never quite satisfied with what they have. It is, in fact, entirely possible to spend a billion dollars per year. Investments, charities, buying extremely fancy art, paying your three thousand housekeepers, getting diamond-encrusted suits...it's all about trying to show off your wealth. Status games. One guy's idea for a utopia actually had a slow shift to where you had to buy what amounted to vouchers in bead form that showed how much you'd donated to charity/government that year, which would become the primary status symbol for wealth levels that large. If you want to make sure everyone knows you're richer than then them, donate more. Usually, no, they're not going to be helping the economy. But 'you're not contributing' isn't grounds for taking all of that money. High taxes, yes. Very high, even. But 90% taxes above, say, a hundred million dollars a year(over ten million seems more reasonable to me, really, but that's not actually based on anything so *shrug*), as the highest bracket? You're gonna be making a lot more in tax money than 100% over a billion, for multiple reasons.

For one, we're getting a lot more in taxes from the obscenely rich. We're getting way, way more in taxes from now-nonprofit organizations (since capital is now flowing into private hands instead of staying corporate, so it's being taxed as salary). Also, the government actually prints money. It can't "run out" any more than Reddit can run out of upvotes. So long as the total value of the economy (which backs the dollar) rises at approximately the same rate as we're spending, the PPP of the dollar remains the same
...So we're going to devalue the dollar massively to pay for this? Like, we're cutting off trade relations, getting rid of the massive corrupt corporations that are a significant portion of the country's economy, and making it so everyone can afford what they need. Inflation will go through the roof if you take the 'print money' route. Like, the rich don't stick around to get taxed. They like being rich. Money is a measure of value, or time, or work, or however you want to put it. Rather than make everything non-profit, you could just tax corporations.

I was thinking firing and blacklisting from government work for a start, plus prosecution with standing anticorruption law.
Right, but what about all the people who weren't corrupt?
A better way to deal with it, I think, would be to allow prisoners to choose their correctional facility, and they're organized in tiers based on security/rehabilitation versus seclusion or whatever. They get to learn about what prisons they might end up in while they're waiting for trial or right after, and then they have to try and appeal. They can also request transfers if they find themselves being abused or the like. Cases of prisoner mistreatment are followed up on thoroughly, escaped prisoners mean a hefty-ass fine to make sure they don't try and attract people just looking to escape...you have to work with incentives. Not against them.

I think the basic income will do more to stop gun violence than a lot of stuff. They're just not a major concern for me.
Certainly. "I made a mistake in trusting Mr. X. He no longer works for me, and I've appointed an independent group to investigate the operation so we can compensate for the mistakes," is enough, so long as it's followed through. I'd love to see a politician take that level of responsibility.
Eh, fair enough.

Does he actively court racists by saying bigoted things?  Yes.

He's certainly said things that people have termed bigoted. Given that political discourse in America at the minute is in a place where Congress have faced resolutions forbidding them from even using the term 'illegal immigrant', I'd rather make my own mind up about what is bigoted and what isn't.
Do I need to bring up the Mexican rapist thing? Like, really do I need to find a video where he has to backtrack and say that he doesn't think all Mexicans are rapists, just some of them?

Do you not consider that racist?

Wasn't expecting that one! Though, to be fair, I'm fine with mocking the field in terms of the candidates. It's just when it crosses the line to insulting the voters that I think is a step too far. Like, there was a post a dozen or so pages back along the lines of 'Everyone with a mental age of 12+ knows Trump is a joke'. I take offence to that. It makes a rather direct implication about my mental capacity.
Also, this(addressed to people in general, by the way, but also mainiac in specific). Mock the candidates all you want. You aren't the candidate you support. Arguments are not wars, and politics should not be a battlefield. You don't need to be a soldier taking the bullet for your general. Don't attack the people you're interacting with. Attacking the politicians who will never visit this forum? Why should it bother you? Association? 'If my candidate is a racist, then he's saying I'm a racist! That motherfucker!'?
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Shadowlord

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13774 on: March 07, 2016, 08:05:02 pm »

Not sure if covenant missed the "Mexico is sending their killers and rapists" speech or just actually believes it.

It's convenient to be able to blame Mexicans (also blacks!) for rape, murder, and stealing jobs, to blame China for "beating us" at trade, to blame Muslims for terrorism and call for a halt on all Muslims traveling to the country and for the ones in the country to be looked at real hard because they're all potential terrorists...
But apply that standard fairly. There are more white rapists than illegal immigrant rapists; when will Trump call for all whites to be deported to Europe? There are
 just as many right wing terrorist acts, usually Christians, in this country; When will trump call for a halt on Christian travelers and place churches under surveillance, or call for the arrest of those who provoke people into violence by feeding them bullshit conspiracy theories? (He won't; He repeats those same conspiracy theories.)

This whole process by which you tell people that everything they see wrong is the fault of some other ethnic or religious groups, gaining power while promising to fix it... All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again, so it he gets elected and Hitlers it up, don't say you did nazi it coming.
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mainiac

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13775 on: March 07, 2016, 08:06:44 pm »

Do I need to bring up the Mexican rapist thing? Like, really do I need to find a video where he has to backtrack and say that he doesn't think all Mexicans are rapists, just some of them?

Do you not consider that racist?

If you shout an accusation and then whisper a retraction, you are exploiting racism, plain and simple.

Attacking the politicians who will never visit this forum? Why should it bother you?

Because I believe in honesty.  Why are you okay with dishonesty?
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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sluissa

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13776 on: March 07, 2016, 08:07:39 pm »

*Not trying to open that topic. Please don't start discussing sexism etc.

You don't want to discuss it, don't bring it up.
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smjjames

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13777 on: March 07, 2016, 08:15:29 pm »

Nice pun wordplay there shadowlord. I get your point though.

It doesn't seem like Trump would go full Hitler, but then again, we have 20/20 hindsight because history, and did the Germans of Hitler's time see it coming? (rhetorical question here, not an actual one. Though if any of the German forumites wants to respond, thats ok.)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 08:22:50 pm by smjjames »
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13778 on: March 07, 2016, 08:22:14 pm »

Because I believe in honesty.  Why are you okay with dishonesty?
Where have I been dishonest? At what point have I been dishonest? Please, point it out to me, so I can avoid doing so again in the future. If this is a matter of intellectual integrity for you, say that. Don't resort to acting like a child. Like this behavior is literally shit fifth-graders pull. You're better than that, and you know it, and I know it, and all you're accomplishing is making your credibility in the minds of other people here go down. I know that's all I'm getting out of it. That or thinking you're pissed off about something else and taking it out via forums.

Like, seriously. Everyone who's insinuating shit about other posters needs to fucking stop. Now, preferably. That means you too, Shadowlord.
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smirk

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13779 on: March 07, 2016, 08:24:15 pm »

Actual news: Bloomberg will not be running an independent campaign for POTUS. I want to make a snarky comment here, something something hedge-fund managers, but I know very very little about him so I'll pass.
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mainiac

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13780 on: March 07, 2016, 08:28:00 pm »

Because I believe in honesty.  Why are you okay with dishonesty?
Where have I been dishonest?

I demanded honesty.  You objected to my demand.  This isn't you being dishonest but it is you standing up for dishonesty.  To be fair people should have the right to be dishonest but I should have the right to call them out on it.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Helgoland

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13781 on: March 07, 2016, 08:30:11 pm »

It doesn't seem like Trump would go full Hitler, but then again, we have 20/20 hindsight because history, and did the Germans of Hitler's time see it coming? (rhetorical question here, not an actual one. Though if any of the German forumites wants to respond, thats ok.)
I think for many it was along the lines of 'Eh, he's not gonna follow through on the more crazy stuff - since when to politicians keep their electoral promises?'

Come to think of it, that's kinda my attitude towards Trump by now. Maybe I should worry about that.
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Cruxador

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13782 on: March 07, 2016, 08:32:31 pm »

troll
trolling
Accusing others of trolling is every bit as puerile as trolling is in the first place. Assume that all arguments are made in good faith, even if the arguments seem inane to you. Politics, and especially the politics of large nations, include people with very different perspectives and what you suppose to be a troll may well be a sincere person; dismissing those sincerely held views as "trolling"

Not that I'd disagree with nenjin's post, but it's somewhat aggravating that acting that way is treated as perfectly fine (and even emulated) when the target is Trump/Trump supporters; it's apparently only when discussing the Democratic candidates that we're expected to participate in good faith and with respect and civility.
This is true too, of course. Demeaning any candidate ought to be backed up by facts. It's not like there's not enough of them.

OMG SHRILLARY #SOBLACK LOLZORS I AM SO FUNNY!!!111!!!111!!
Congratulations on proving that you previously had not scraped the bottom of the intellectual battle.
I wouldn't make satire
You haven't been.
I'm trolling
If we know what you're doing, you're not trolling. You could theoretically be trying to but I think that, like "satire" and "rhetorical question", this is just one more word that you think you know the meaning of but don't.

You can't spend a billion dollars a year on your self no matter how hard you try.
If I was 1%, I bet I could spend that much just on yachts. I like boats. But there's also fun things like cars, houses, planes, basically anything you'd get in Grand Theft Auto, and also decadent vacations and just general cost of living. Hell, you can spend a million just on the wages of your house staff easily, and still be able to use all of them.

You willingly support a candidate who successful courts the racist vote.  That doesn't make you a racist.  That does mean that you tolerate racism in pursuit of your political aims.
I mean, we have someone repping Moon Man up in here, racism is clearly well within the range of "tolerable". Saying "but that's racist" is, by itself, about as convincing an argument as emulating John Oliver by reminding everyone of the current year.

Because I believe in honesty.  Why are you okay with dishonesty?
Criticizing politicians isn't dishonest. In fact, dishonesty is one of the biggest criticism of Clinton specifically.

did the Germans of Hitler's time see it coming?
Hitler did what he was elected to do, right up until the point where he lost WWII.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13783 on: March 07, 2016, 08:33:09 pm »

Like, seriously. Everyone who's insinuating shit about other posters needs to fucking stop. Now, preferably. That means you too, Shadowlord.

You're insinuating that I'm insinuating, when I was attempting to persuade, actually.
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Wolfhunter107

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13784 on: March 07, 2016, 08:34:24 pm »

Because I believe in honesty.  Why are you okay with dishonesty?
Where have I been dishonest?

I demanded honesty.  You objected to my demand.  This isn't you being dishonest but it is you standing up for dishonesty.  To be fair people should have the right to be dishonest but I should have the right to call them out on it.
Can you just cut it out already?
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