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[Rolan7]

This is really unrelated to the "police misconduct" issue, jeez.  Liberals haven't been forming armed militias like this, so we can't really compare.  It would be absolutely crazy for them to storm the building this early, and we don't know for sure that they would have done so to a liberal group.

Though it is bizarre that they're apparently letting the militia do grocery runs into town??  I hope those have been stopped by now.

And to reiterate, nobody's calling for this group to get killed in cold blood.  Just for the authorities to attempt an arrest.  Hopefully bloodless, so these morons survive to face justice.  But they can't be allowed to run amok, that's absurd.

FBI is "monitoring' but is not on the scene. Apparently the only ones on the scene are reporters.

FWIW, Ted Cruz has been the first candidate to speak to the issue, calling for the Bundy militia to stand down peaceably.

“Every one of us has a constitutional right to protest, to speak our minds,” Cruz told reporters in Iowa. “But we don’t have a constitutional right to use force and violence and to threaten force and violence against others. So it is our hope that the protesters there will stand down peaceably, that there will not be a violent confrontation.”

What no he's a republican he's not allowed to respond first and be reasonable I want a refund.

Well don't forget Representative Andy Holt...  Which I think was already linked but here
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/andy-holt-oregon-bundy-support

[Powder Miner]

I wouldn't complain if action was taken, because it most definitely IS a crime and a severe one at that (so I suppose I'm in the former camp RedKing.) let me be clear about that. I'm not sympathizing with the Bundy Bunch here, I'd just like to avoid death if it can be avoided. If they start trying to cap the police, I wouldn't begrudge them shooting back.

No one died in the Ferguson and Baltimore riots, by the way. The worst-injured person was a fire victim. There were beatings absolutely all around from both sides, but no one actually died. The violence has been in individual cases, and while I can't help but think Wilson was acting in self-defense (if too far) I've been OUTRAGED at pretty much every other shooting. Garner, Rice, Grey, Chamberlain.

[RedKing]

No, I kinda was calling for them to get killed in cold blood. But I'll agree, that was perhaps a bit extreme.
I say show up in force and arrest and remove them (peaceably but firmly). They open fire? Napalm the sonsofbitches.

EDIT: And have plenty of cameras rolling during the arrest so it's clear who started what.

[nenjin]

No, I kinda was calling for them to get killed in cold blood. But I'll agree, that was perhaps a bit extreme.
I say show up in force and arrest and remove them (peaceably but firmly). They open fire? Napalm the sonsofbitches.

EDIT: And have plenty of cameras rolling during the arrest so it's clear who started what.

My feelings too. Announce very clearly that you're coming in and you expect them to go quietly. The rest is on them.

If these guys hadn't brought guns into it, I wouldn't even be posting about this today. But by bringing guns they are intentionally threatening anyone who tries to stop them. This is where it's crossed the line for me. You wanna protest, take over a government building? Go for it. My parents did that shit all the time in the 70s. They smoked some weed, broke in and sat in a drum circle until they were carried off to jail. You get on TV, the nation pays attention for a couple days, you say you did your duty as a free citizen to speak your mind, and everyone goes home.

Guns changes the equation entirely.

This is really unrelated to the "police misconduct" issue, jeez.

Is it really though? How can you not compare people actively waiving guns around and threatening violence, and the police reaction to that, versus all the unarmed shootings in the last few years? How can you not put those two things side by side and ask "what is the difference?"

Sure. The refuge isn't a dark street at night. It's not a inner city beat cop being asked to make a split second decision. But if the presence of a weapon has been an instigating factor for the police to overreact in the past, where is that overreaction right now? Why are there still no police on the scene to make sure those 20 guys with guns and stated willingness to use them don't endanger anyone? Because they're white and we take their word on it as good, upstanding "folksy" ranchers of the west?

I don't see how you can look at this situation and not draw comparisons to other, way less inflammatory situations where there was a body count before reporters even showed up. Why are white militias members allowed to act like this and there's not a single law enforcement officer on the scene after two fucking days.

[RedKing]

In part because the Feds had to back down last time (the Cliven Bundy thing), which the militias counted as a "win".

I'd very much like to see them take an unequivocal "loss" on this one, and nip this shit in the bud.

[itisnotlogical]

I live in "city" Oregon, but there's plenty of hicks and bumpkins living between the major urban areas. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some intentional dragging of feet for these idiots' sake.

[Powder Miner]

There's no price to paid in blood for waiting this time around, the lack of split second decision pretty much means everything. If they do shoot down the militia folks, it must by definition be a premeditated kill... which one DOES see in the inner cities to an extent (and that of course is horrific and should not be)... but that doesn't actually change the current situation, which ought to be figured out on its own strategic merits rather than decided by what has gone on in other situations.

[RedKing]

There's no price to paid in blood for waiting this time around, the lack of split second decision pretty much means everything. If they do shoot down the militia folks, it must by definition be a premeditated kill... which one DOES see in the inner cities to an extent (and that of course is horrific and should not be)... but that doesn't actually change the current situation, which ought to be figured out on its own strategic merits rather than decided by what has gone on in other situations.

So if the Feds move in to arrest and shit hits the fan, you're already of the opinion that it's premeditated on the part of the Feds? Not an attack or a strawman, just trying to get clarification. Because I don't think that's what you're saying.

[Powder Miner]

Oh, no, if they move in to arrest and get shot at they're well within their rights to shoot back. My apologies, I was still of the impression you were pushing the cold blood thing. I'd rather things be timed in order so that noone gets shot, but shooting BACK is fine.

[nenjin]

In part because the Feds had to back down last time (the Cliven Bundy thing), which the militias counted as a "win".

I'd very much like to see them take an unequivocal "loss" on this one, and nip this shit in the bud.

Yea, another proud moment in the fight against domestic extremism. No one got killed so I guess it's a win in someone's book. But the image of white ranchers holding guns and screaming in the faces of police officers...and those officers just standing there taking it still sticks with me. I couldn't fathom another situation like that in almost any other circumstance. What I would normally love to see (police officers exercising maximum restraint) somehow becomes tainted because I believe the reason for showing that restraint isn't respect for the law or the love of human life. It's because politically they don't disagree with them or at least are unwilling to police "their own kind." How can you have any justice in this country when enforcement is so goddamn arbitrary. In almost all other instances of being within 500 feet of an officer who needs to deal with you, carrying a loaded weapon and/or being hostile is fucking death sentence.

There's no price to paid in blood for waiting this time around, the lack of split second decision pretty much means everything. If they do shoot down the militia folks, it must by definition be a premeditated kill... which one DOES see in the inner cities to an extent (and that of course is horrific and should not be)... but that doesn't actually change the current situation, which ought to be figured out on its own strategic merits rather than decided by what has gone on in other situations.

The strategy seems pretty straightforward to me. You tell them to put down their guns and peaceably disband and take them all into custody. They don't require special consideration unless they're actually ready to shoot at law enforcement officers. And the playbook for that situation is pretty clear cut already.

Put another way. Why do these guys deserve special treatment? Why are they not being treated, at a minimum, like your average everyday criminal. Forget armed vigilante, armed separatist movement, armed terrorist or any of the other more exotic labels that totally apply to them.

[Morrigi]

They're not being treated like common criminals because they aren't. They're much better armed and organized, and the police and Feds don't want to be involved in another bloodbath.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

In fairness, there was a similar reaction to the police observation patrols done by the Black Panthers all the way back in the 60's. Even the most rabid cop isn't suicidal, multiple people with guns are a risk to tangle with no matter what.

But then again, maybe I'm wrong and trying to bring that back would just turn into a massacre immediately. There is a certain Khornate edge that modern cops have compared to their predecessors.

[RedKing]

COPS FOR THE COP THRONE

[wobbly]

This is what I love about American politics, much ideology & rhetoric, very little practicality. Seems to me they're handling the situation in a way that causes the minimum chance of a bloodbath & a shitfest (for once) and I have to read a whole heap of people calling for blood on principle. Is there a double standard? Of course? Is that shit? yes. No amount of killing crazy white right wing hicks is actually going to make people who don't care about black lives start caring.

Just siege them out. Minimize the collateral damage. Arrest them. Charge them with everything you can. It's actually how law enforcement is supposed to work. I've read a lot of people complaining that the situation is actually being handled the way it's meant to be.

[Egan_BW]

No, Khorne is the god of justice and honor. These cops are just filthy corpegod worshippers.