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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1571153 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: American Election Megathread- Voting Trump/Wallace in '168
« Reply #8595 on: December 22, 2015, 08:51:48 pm »

Yes, anyone who expresses a point of view that is not standard left or right party politics

Nice strawman but halloween was months ago.

Or I'm responding to what I believe your point to be, and you're simply not communicating effectively.

that society is structured to reinforce privilege

A statement I would agree with.  I just wouldn't agree with the bullshit "oh but the left doesn't care about the eagles!"  When people express admiration for intellectually lazy arguments that just blur a bunch of shit together and think they are clever, I call them out on it.  It's what I do.

Look I'm not saying the person who wrote that piece was especially intelligent.  It was in general a recklessly, lazily constructed rant.  But what I get from your response to it is that you just don't like the sentiment and want to discredit that sort of thinking in general, and you do it by picking on things like this that aren't even central to the point.  He make precisely zero implication that the bit about eagles is equal to millions of people imprisoned by drug war.  His only point was that the left and right pick up on different things as being unfair, and this was not even the main point he was building up to.

It was essentially an anarchist rant.  An immature one, yes, but a general sentiment I am sympathetic to.  My beef is that you accuse that sentiment as nothing more than a need to feel smugly superior by pretending to be different from mainstream politics with empty bitching, and I'm bringing it up because that's far from the first time I have interpreted your posts in precisely this way.  If my interpretation is wrong, it's not because I'm trying to strawman you.
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Flying Dice

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Re: American Election Megathread- Voting Trump/Wallace in '168
« Reply #8596 on: December 22, 2015, 08:57:27 pm »

Um. I don't often say this, but I'm pretty much in complete agreement with mainiac here, SG.

Quote
Posting smug bullshit that claims to be superior to both sides while making no difficult judgement is a Christmas tradition?

How does that indicate disliking the general idea of nonpartisan criticism of the establishment (or however else you want to phrase this strain of thought)? It's pretty expressly directed at, as you put it, reckless and lazy rants.

Maybe you don't parse that rant as equating things which are completely out of proportion with each other, but that's how it read to me: the guy brought up petty bullshit in the same metaphorical breath as serious issues. It could be intentional bias, it could be lazy and imprecise rhetoric, but in either case the issue being underlined is clearly with that blog post in particular rather than anarchist or nonpartisan sentiment as a whole.
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread- Voting Trump/Wallace in '168
« Reply #8597 on: December 22, 2015, 08:59:46 pm »

Yes, anyone who expresses a point of view that is not standard left or right party politics

Nice strawman but halloween was months ago.

Or I'm responding to what I believe your point to be, and you're simply not communicating effectively.
mainiac? Communicate poorly? That's unpossible!
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread- Voting Trump/Wallace in '168
« Reply #8598 on: December 22, 2015, 09:34:32 pm »

It was essentially an anarchist rant.  An immature one, yes, but a general sentiment I am sympathetic to.  My beef is that you accuse that sentiment as nothing more than a need to feel smugly superior by pretending to be different from mainstream politics with empty bitching, and I'm bringing it up because that's far from the first time I have interpreted your posts in precisely this way.

I would say that's because empty or misdirected bitching masquerading as independence or neutrality or libertarianism or anarchism comes up a lot. If you have problems with me labeling specific arguments that way then I would be interested in knowing the specific arguments you feel I have unfairly condemned.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Re: American Election Megathread- Voting Trump/Wallace in '168
« Reply #8599 on: December 22, 2015, 09:46:39 pm »

I should hope my own libertarian views don't fall into the "empty bitching" camp :V
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SalmonGod

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Re: American Election Megathread- Voting Trump/Wallace in '168
« Reply #8600 on: December 22, 2015, 09:47:58 pm »

Quote
Posting smug bullshit that claims to be superior to both sides while making no difficult judgement is a Christmas tradition?

How does that indicate disliking the general idea of nonpartisan criticism of the establishment (or however else you want to phrase this strain of thought)? It's pretty expressly directed at, as you put it, reckless and lazy rants.

Maybe you don't parse that rant as equating things which are completely out of proportion with each other, but that's how it read to me: the guy brought up petty bullshit in the same metaphorical breath as serious issues. It could be intentional bias, it could be lazy and imprecise rhetoric, but in either case the issue being underlined is clearly with that blog post in particular rather than anarchist or nonpartisan sentiment as a whole.

The eagles thing is taken from this.

Quote
The older I get, the more I see, the more I read, the more clear it becomes to me that the entire game is rigged. The leftists and the rightists each see half of the fraud. The lefties correctly note that a poor kid caught with cocaine goes to jail, while a Bush can write it off as a youthful mistake (they somehow overlook the fact that their man Barrack hasn't granted clemency to any one of the people doing federal time for the same felonies he committed). The righties note that government subsidized windmills kill protected eagles with impunity while Joe Sixpack would be deep in the crap if he even picked up a dead eagle from the side of the road. The lefties note that no one was prosecuted over the financial meltdown. The righties note that the Obama administration rewrote bankruptcy law on the fly to loot value from GM stockholders and hand it to the unions. The lefties note that Republicans tweak export rules to give big corporations subsidies. Every now and then both sides join together to note that, hey! the government is spying on every one of us…or that, hey! the government stole a bunch of people's houses and gave them to Pfizer, because a privately owned for-profit corporation is apparently what the Constitution means by "public use".

What neither side seems to realize is that the system is not reformable. There are multiple classes of people, but it boils down to the connected, and the not connected. Just as in pre-Revolutionary France, there is a very strict class hierarchy, and the very idea that we are equal before the law is a laughable nonsequitr.

Maybe you guys are taking his meaning where he says "half of the fraud" way too literally.  But it doesn't even matter, because this isn't even his core point.  His core point is that the nature of the thing is unfairness and that unfairness is intentional.  The above paragraphs are only building up to it, pointing out examples where the right and left sides of politics focus on specific things that they find unfair, instead of accepting that the whole thing is founded on intentional unfairness.  Yeah, a couple of his examples are rather shitty, and I'm not defending them.

There's a drug war that has imprisoned millions but a windmill killed an eagle somewhere so those things are basically a wash.

Picking on a single petty detail to establish a surface appearance of superior informedness and validity.

Posting smug bullshit that claims to be superior to both sides while making no difficult judgement

People will repeat bitching and moaning like it's some amazing wisdom and then when you apply a little skepticism to the bitching and moaning they act like you are cheating.

Coupled with sweeping statements of belittling character judgement about anyone who says anything of this general nature without any substantiation beyond picking on that detail.

It's the same routine anytime anyone says something like this.  That's how it's read to me in the past when it was directed at me for expressing anarchist sentiments, and that's how I'm reading it now.  Claiming separation from right/left party politics just means you're being smug, and bringing up issues to reinforce your point of view is bitching and moaning, regardless of whether it's trying to make a point or not.  Instead of accusing me of strawman, tell me how I should read it.


It was essentially an anarchist rant.  An immature one, yes, but a general sentiment I am sympathetic to.  My beef is that you accuse that sentiment as nothing more than a need to feel smugly superior by pretending to be different from mainstream politics with empty bitching, and I'm bringing it up because that's far from the first time I have interpreted your posts in precisely this way.

I would say that's because empty or misdirected bitching masquerading as independence or neutrality or libertarianism or anarchism comes up a lot. If you have problems with me labeling specific arguments that way then I would be interested in knowing the specific arguments you feel I have unfairly condemned.

We haven't had that sort of confrontation much for a long time.  I haven't been as active on the forum the last couple years as I used to be, and have specifically avoided that kind of thing when I have been, because I haven't had the time to dedicate to it.  I'm not going to spend my night going digging now.  So what I'll do instead is bookmark this post and quote it whenever it happens again.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 09:52:20 pm by SalmonGod »
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Re: American Election Megathread- Voting Trump/Wallace in '168
« Reply #8601 on: December 22, 2015, 09:50:19 pm »

Eh. The whole "burn down the system and rebuild a better one" has been done before. For example, the American revolution.

Now look where we are now. That same general idea is being thrown around again. It's a cycle. Old system becomes corrupt, it's removed and a new system is implemented. New system runs for a while, over time becoming corrupted. Repeat ad nauseam.
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread- Voting Trump/Wallace in '168
« Reply #8602 on: December 22, 2015, 09:57:02 pm »

I should hope my own libertarian views don't fall into the "empty bitching" camp :V

Hope is a good thing!  I hope your hope inspires you to good shit.


Maybe you guys are taking his meaning where he says "half of the fraud" way too literally.  But it doesn't even matter, because this isn't even his core point.  His core point is that the nature of the thing is unfairness and that unfairness is intentional.

I think the problem is that you are taking my argument far, far too unliterally.  My issue was that he made bullshit arguments and innuendo.  You are deciding I wasn't hostile towards his conclusion that the system is rigged.  That was not what I was hostile towards.  I would like to repeat myself once again and state that I do think the system is characterized by stark inequalities in treatment.

Picking on a single petty detail to establish a surface appearance of superior informedness and validity.

No, pointing out a detail which is representative of the paragraph to establish the quality of the paragraph.

Eh. The whole "burn down the system and rebuild a better one" has been done before. For example, the American revolution.

Eh?


Remember kids, knowledge is power.  A stupid argument does no service to it's cause.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Flying Dice

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Re: American Election Megathread- Voting Trump/Wallace in '168
« Reply #8603 on: December 22, 2015, 10:15:11 pm »

Eh. The whole "burn down the system and rebuild a better one" has been done before. For example, the American revolution.

It wasn't even though. It was part of the existing elite taking advantage of popular sentiment at the time to break off (coincidentally allowing them to rewrite the social order mostly along established lines, but with different people in charge). Certainly there was a degree of radicalism in the injection of Enlightenment philosophy into real political action, but it was in no sense a wiping of the slate. More like crossing out the name at the top and writing a new one in. This sort of pattern becomes much more clearly delineated as we approach the present, as revolutions are more and more prone to avoid any real change beyond substituting one regime for another. The Iranian revolution is the most recent meaningful change that I can think of off the top of my head.

That said, some degree of societal turnover is by all appearances inevitable. It's in human nature to become complacent and sloppy when left unchallenged and satisfied for too long. The real danger is that technology may reach a point where a stagnant ruling class could maintain itself indefinitely through fascistic methods applied through technological means.
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Powder Miner

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Re: American Election Megathread- Voting Trump/Wallace in '168
« Reply #8604 on: December 22, 2015, 10:16:53 pm »

I actually, despite being libertarian, hold the view that the view that the system has morphed into a sphere of corruption and inequality compared to its previous days is very much wrong. There wasn't social mobility for anything back in the founders' days (at least compared to modern day -- it was still better than a lot of Europe, fight me Europeans :p) and there was a very much literal aristocratic class. You might compare rich folks to the aristocratic class of then... but you'd be pretty wrong, in my eyes. They hold a lot of power, but not ACTUALLY to the extent of totally excluding poor folk from the political process like was very much the case in the 18th century USA.

I won't challenge that it has its issues with corruption and the like, but the thought that it's grown too far away from its roots to be successful, as some sort of cycle, seems absurd to me when you actually get down to comparing.
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread- Voting Trump/Wallace in '168
« Reply #8605 on: December 22, 2015, 10:23:05 pm »

The real danger is that technology may reach a point where a stagnant ruling class could maintain itself indefinitely through fascistic methods applied through technological means.

I could be argued that guns allowed peasants to kill knights but drones will make the knights unassailable once more.

I'm a bit skeptical however.  The proliferation of technology means that it's hard to control every technology and any high ground tends to dissipate quickly.  The US can only maintain the high ground over terrorists in technology indefinitely because their real membership is tiny.  If there were a million such people our drones would be countered by now.

There wasn't social mobility for anything back in the founders' days (at least compared to modern day -- it was still better than a lot of Europe, fight me Europeans :p) and there was a very much literal aristocratic class.

The abundance of land and self sufficiency of most people would make 1776 rather egalitarian, no?

Also, is this opposite day?
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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SalmonGod

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Re: American Election Megathread- Voting Trump/Wallace in '168
« Reply #8606 on: December 22, 2015, 10:29:44 pm »

I think the problem is that you are taking my argument far, far too unliterally.  My issue was that he made bullshit arguments and innuendo.  You are deciding I wasn't hostile towards his conclusion that the system is rigged.  That was not what I was hostile towards.  I would like to repeat myself once again and state that I do think the system is characterized by stark inequalities in treatment.

I'll take this at face value and move on then, since you did what I asked and stated clearly what you intended to say.  This just isn't how you tend to come across in situations like this.  Your statements read like they're directed at the nature of the sentiment being expressed, not the quality of that specific example.

When you say "Posting smug bullshit that claims to be superior to both sides", this doesn't do anything to critique the arguments the person is using.  This is a statement about why someone would write an opinion of this nature, and it's natural for someone who shares that general opinion to take that sort of statement as applying to them also.  This is why things tend to get heated around you.
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Flying Dice

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Re: American Election Megathread- Voting Trump/Wallace in '168
« Reply #8607 on: December 22, 2015, 10:30:51 pm »

Oh, of course--that was entirely theoretical, it'd take a hell of a lot more than we have now to keep a population in the billions or hundreds of millions happily ignorant and enslaved, and a large component of it would have to be a much higher baseline standard of living. You'd either need a drastic reduction in total population and birthrates, to hit post-scarcity, or both.
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Re: American Election Megathread- Voting Trump/Wallace in '168
« Reply #8608 on: December 22, 2015, 10:31:53 pm »

What I was trying to say with my earlier post is that the whole "burn the system down" argument amounts to basically saying "the current system is flawed so let's replace it with another" and once the new system is in place and running, by running it eventually becomes more flawed or corrupt, to the point where once again the "burn the system down" argument is brought up. It's a cycle and doesn't really cure the "corruption".

What that article - or blog post or whatever it is - seems to be suggesting for the "replacement system" - going by the aggression and general pathos of "FUCK DA POLEECE" - is anarchy, which is still a system, just a very very very loose system. And anarchy is probably the system most prone to "corruption" because one individual with enough power can completely turn the anarchy into a more ordered system under either monarchy or dictatorship and do whatever they want.
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Re: American Election Megathread- Voting Trump/Wallace in '168
« Reply #8609 on: December 22, 2015, 10:35:37 pm »

There wasn't social mobility for anything back in the founders' days (at least compared to modern day -- it was still better than a lot of Europe, fight me Europeans :p) and there was a very much literal aristocratic class.
The abundance of land and self sufficiency of most people would make 1776 rather egalitarian, no?
... half of the to-be-country's founding states had economies almost entirely dependent on slavery at that point. "Abundance of free land" only really existed after America both 1) fought tooth and nail to remove Britain's protections of indigenous territory rights after they won, and 2) bought large tracts of land from the French that sat to the west of their respective states. A lot of southern aristocrats were pissed off that Britain didn't respect their status because they were considered a provincial gentry. 1776 was only egalitarian in many places if you consider "pretty easy to get ahead if you are white and male and without empathy for anyone who isn't" egalitarian.
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