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[mainiac]

It almost feels insulting to the memory of the victims that the debate has turned into this flag shit.  Like sure I wish the flag was gone but what an empty gesture.  It distracts from the real shame that we are going to do bugger all about the conditions that would lead to the attack.

[RedKing]

It almost feels insulting to the memory of the victims that the debate has turned into this flag shit.  Like sure I wish the flag was gone but what an empty gesture.  It distracts from the real shame that we are going to do bugger all about the conditions that would lead to the attack.

For once, mainiac and I agree wholeheartedly about something.

[Aqizzar]

It almost feels insulting to the memory of the victims that the debate has turned into this flag shit.  Like sure I wish the flag was gone but what an empty gesture.  It distracts from the real shame that we are going to do bugger all about the conditions that would lead to the attack.

I honestly don't think it's an empty gesture, considering how many times white-supremacist violence has happened before, and otherwise humane conservative politicians insisted the Confederate flag needed to be protected as a legitimate historical symbol not matter how many hate groups flew it as a banner.

It's a completely ineffective gesture yes, and a pretty clear attempt by some politicians to lay the blame for racism at something other than their constituents so they can brush off their hands and say, "There, racial tension in America has been forever solved."

But really, what else is new?  It's certainly nothing but a positive thing to happen, I don't see any reason to get upset about it.  That it will probably be the only political act to come out of this, yeah that's pretty crappy.  But I wouldn't let that diminish it.

[Frumple]

Yeah, bit of a with-chinman, here. At least it's something, and to a large extent that's more than what we've been getting in the past. At least maybe not entirely fuck-all will come of it. Mostly, sure, and in a way that distracts from the substantiative issues, but goddamn, at least it's not entirely nothing.

Honestly, I'm mildly (and happily) surprised they're even actually attempting to take the flag down.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Frumple]

Presumably whoever actually took it down. Or the state in general. I can pretty much guarantee you that if someone did while it was still illegal, some racist jackass would pretty much immediately sue the state or press charges, however they'd go about it.

[Aqizzar]

I just want to know why they haven't taken it down already. I get there's a law saying the flag has to be up there, but everyone knows it's a stupid law. Even Lindsay Graham knows and he's stuck in some sort of antebellum South cosplay accent all the time. Who would get in trouble if they took it down?

Anybody who relies on tacitly racist 'identity politics' voters to hold an elected office.  Namely, a worrying large number of Southern politicians.

[RedKing]

So that's the state of American politics? "Yeah, so we basically got fucked in the ass, but hey...we got a 20% off coupon for lubricant! At least it's not nothing."

Sorry guys, I can't feel that this is a victory in the least. It's a sleight of hand, to give outraged African-Americans and liberals *something* to cheer, so that they ignore the fact that jack-fucking-all is going to change. Hell, it even gives them something to rile their base with -- "See, those damn liberals taking away your heritage just because some crazy guy shot some some coloreds! That ain't fair, is it?? Today it's the flag, tomorrow it'll be your truck nuts!"

[Aqizzar]

Sorry guys, I can't feel that this is a victory in the least. It's a sleight of hand, to give outraged African-Americans and liberals *something* to cheer, so that they ignore the fact that jack-fucking-all is going to change. Hell, it even gives them something to rile their base with -- "See, those damn liberals taking away your heritage just because some crazy guy shot some some coloreds! That ain't fair, is it?? Today it's the flag, tomorrow it'll be your truck nuts!"

I'm honestly not sure who's expressing the sorrier attitude here.  I'm just saying, take your victories where you can get them, that doesn't mean you have to be satisfied with them.

[RedKing]

And I'm saying this is a token victory. It's a consolation prize for mass murder.

If we as a nation settle for this and say "Well...glad that's over with," we should be ashamed of ourselves. And we will. You know we will.

[Frumple]

... it's not a victory. Just not a complete and total loss. Yeah, it's sleight of hand. Not too far back, we wouldn't have even gotten that goddamn much. "At least it's something" is more than I've seen during most of my life. It's a happy surprise. Or at least less disheartening, whatever. You'll have to excuse me if I acknowledge at least that much.

[scriver]

Isolate and demonize them until their speech is considered on the same level as violent jihadis.

A significant portion of ISIS's manpower is composed of Western-born Muslims. Even if the vast majority of respectable society shuns white supremacists, it won't eliminate isolated fringe extremists like this guy- and, in many cases, apocalyptic ideologues like Dylann Roof just become more resilient under pressure, because they get an "only sane man" complex.

(I'm not saying they should be socially tolerated- they definitely shouldn't be. But ostracism can only get you so far.)

I think that a much more effective solution would be to pull them out if their social bubbles and into the real world. Ostracism doesn't work well when there's thousands of like-minded people on the internet you can escape to, it just serves to reinforce to "us against them" narrative and tribalisation.

[Sheb]

Well, the fact is, you'll always have shithead that decide to go one a murder spree on innocents for their warped ideology, whether they're islamists, white supremacists or French wine makers. (Yes, they actually have been terrorists attacks by french wine makers. Those guys are intense).

Now, what should happen now is the FBI looking into what could have been (or not) done to stop it. They're not expected to work magic, but it's still a failure. Maybe part of that anti-terrorist money bonanza would be better spent monitoring racial hate groups? Maybe not. I don't know, that why they need to look into it.

All the rest is mostly empty political theater, but hey, at least it's entertaining to watch.

[Zangi]

Catching lone gunmen who post their shit online months before? 
Argument for more mass data gathering/surveillance.  Of course, there is trying to tell the difference between plain crazy and shoot em up crazy...

[Aqizzar]

Now, what should happen now is the FBI looking into what could have been (or not) done to stop it. They're not expected to work magic, but it's still a failure. Maybe part of that anti-terrorist money bonanza would be better spent monitoring racial hate groups? Maybe not. I don't know, that why they need to look into it.

They are looking into it, always.  The FBI has been repeatedly warning that domestic terrorism, and especially people talking about doing crazy shit, is the most active the FBI has seen since the mid-90s (bombs and militias and whatnot), and has been steadily building over the last five or six years.  Y'know, for some reason.

The issue is, the FBI is not run by stupid people.  They know exactly why white supremacist and survivalist militia groups are on the rise.  They also know that anything they do to proactively ferret out potential troublemakers might just inspire more of them.  Dylann Roof was the perfect example of the problem they're dealing with; until a couple weeks ago he was just another weird dude saying weird things to his close family, with no tangible connection to any of the people he claimed to be inspired by.

There's a great quote from an FBI agent that I wish I had saved, this is a big free country where people can say any hateful or stupid things they want.  Saying things is not a crime, associating with people who say things is not a crime, buying the tools to do things is usually not a crime although it definitely gets the FBI's attention.  It's only the act itself that's actually a crime.  And trying to keep tabs on every single unaffiliated crazy person just isn't possible, and the FBI knows that the more they try, the more they fit the stereotype these fringe groups want the government to fit, and the more they might wind up fueling the next unaffiliated crazy person.

The Oklahoma City federal building was bombed on the anniversary of the Waco ATF siege, for exactly this sort of reason.  The last thing the FBI wants is to set off a chain reaction like that again.

Of course, it might help if the FBI director wasn't trying pretend policially motivated violent isn't terrorism if it isn't foreign.