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[Zangi]

Prosecution of criminals stopped, cause a 'secret' method to spoof mobile communications is used.  Police/FBI/Illuminati really don't want to explain how them stingrays work.  Apparently this has been happening pretty often.

The implications though, if it is not used to stop crime... what is it being used for while in the hands of our Enforcement Branch?

[nenjin]

No... no, they can conceive of it. I've seen average white folks sat down and explained through things, and for at least a little while they understood. They just don't want to, or aren't exposed to it enough the idea really sinks it. Not much of a functional difference, I guess, but... it's not like the folks in question can't understand. They've made themselves a lot of (bullshit) reasons not to, but the capability is there.

I think they literally can't comprehend it. They can't imagine what it's like to be almost automatically suspect in the eyes of every cop they pass. They can't imagine being that poor, that desperate, that uneducated, that hopeless. They can't imagine the amount of death that is part of inner city African American communities, whether those deaths are self-inflicted or not. And they certainly can't imagine themselves, their friends or their relatives being taken into custody and executed by the people who are supposed to protect them, then being dismissed with basically no legal procedure at all.

White people simply don't have to put up with that. Those experiences are so far removed from their day-to-day, they can't honestly conceive of a life that shitty. And I think if the vast majority of Americans were able to really, truly imagine it....they'd be as terrified as black people, and we'd have much larger riots.

[mainiac]

Game theory explanation of why rioters are doing a good thing for the nerds in the audience:
http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/5911.html

[Lord Shonus]

White people simply don't have to put up with that. Those experiences are so far removed from their day-to-day, they can't honestly conceive of a life that shitty. And I think if the vast majority of Americans were able to really, truly imagine it....they'd be as terrified as black people, and we'd have much larger riots.

As a white person who cannot go into several of the local bars safely, has been threatened in the street on more than one occasion, and been openly denied employment for the color of my skin - I'm going to tell you that you need to check your assumptions here.

[nenjin]

White people simply don't have to put up with that. Those experiences are so far removed from their day-to-day, they can't honestly conceive of a life that shitty. And I think if the vast majority of Americans were able to really, truly imagine it....they'd be as terrified as black people, and we'd have much larger riots.

As a white person who cannot go into several of the local bars safely, has been threatened in the street on more than one occasion, and been openly denied employment for the color of my skin - I'm going to tell you that you need to check your assumptions here.

I'm interested to hear the particulars. But I'd argue a single exception, or even multiples, does not invalidate the reality. Just like having the first family be black and affluent doesn't mean the situation of blacks is any better.

FWIW, I went link surfing from this that was linked earlier to this, which I found pretty compelling and spent the whole night reading.

I mean, I don't really understand the black experience either, the most I experience is some mixed race suspicion that usually catches me by surprise because lots of people assume I'm just white too. While I can intellectually understand the weave of their existence and all the negative inputs, I can't really put myself in the mindset of someone who lives it. Life simply hasn't been that bad for me, by a long mark. For example I don't think many white Americans can really appreciate what systematic, fatal violence in their community does to people's mindsets, because we don't live in communities where violence is endemic.

[Lord Shonus]

For example I don't think many white Americans can really appreciate what systematic, fatal violence in their community does to people's mindsets, because we don't live in communities where violence is endemic.

And this is the fatal flaw in the argument - the notion that a white skin automatically means that you live in a nice safe suburban community where nothing ever goes wrong. Inner cities do have significant minority majorities, but they still have very large white populations as well, and inner city problems do not discriminate. Until the very concept of it being a racial issue rather than an economic one dies forever, nothing will change - because every single remedy attempted is targeting the wrong problem.

[mainiac]

But there are racial gaps that persist even after you account for income geography age education etc. Just straight up racism effects how police treat people even after you control out all the other disadvantages.

[Lord Shonus]

But there are racial gaps that persist even after you account for income geography age education etc. Just straight up racism effects how police treat people even after you control out all the other disadvantages.

That is true to a limited extent - but when 85% of the problem is decaying infrastructure, severe lack of affordable quality food, an educational system that's barely worth the effort of attending, and no avenue out for persons of any color, focusing all your efforts on attacking the 15% that IS racial isn't going to help, and is all too likely to hurt by strengthening the racial divides within the community.

[nenjin]

For example I don't think many white Americans can really appreciate what systematic, fatal violence in their community does to people's mindsets, because we don't live in communities where violence is endemic.

And this is the fatal flaw in the argument - the notion that a white skin automatically means that you live in a nice safe suburban community where nothing ever goes wrong. Inner cities do have significant minority majorities, but they still have very large white populations as well, and inner city problems do not discriminate. Until the very concept of it being a racial issue rather than an economic one dies forever, nothing will change - because every single remedy attempted is targeting the wrong problem.

Unfortunately, race and economy are tied together. How do you think we ended up with black ghettos to begin with? How do you think their neighborhoods fell apart, businesses left, schools didn't receive the money they need? The motivation for oppression has always been economic. To say the two are separate is to miss a large piece of the equation about why black people are where they are today. The most vulnerable communities are the ones that are easily exploitable, and it's the history of exploitation going all the way up through today that continues to keep them at a disadvantage. All the disadvantages of being black in America end up compacted in the inner cities, and you end up with a cycle of crapitude. Hell, even if a family does "make it out" the chances the next generation actually ends up BACK in the same place are higher for blacks than white people. There is actual pressure against upward mobility for them that isn't the same for white people, and isn't just a factor of a rocky economy.

I don't disagree that inner city violence is non-discriminatory. It happens where it happens. But when it is localized around the black community, whether they are the perpetrators or the victims, it sets a tone for their existence that I believe communities where whites the majority don't share.

Put another way, if you live in the same community with black people and one of them is murdered, but you didn't know them, nor do you know anyone that knew them, is it really "your problem?" "your tragedy?" Does it personally affect you, your worldview or your sense of self-worth? I don't doubt a murder in your community, regardless of who it happens to, affects your sense of safety. But is it a continuation of a violent narrative for you and yours like it is for them?

And yes, when I say "White people" I am generalizing. Lots of white people live in black neighborhoods and see and experience the same violence. But again, being white is not historically associated with discrimination, high levels of prosecution, persecution, imprisonment, poor economic standing and education and a drastically shorter life span. For blacks, all those are true.

Like I said, read the second article I linked. It's long, but it's eloquent, sourced and enlightening. Maybe I'm just swept up by a convincing argument for the other side, but reading it really made me rethink my perspective on how much I don't know about what it means to be black in America.

[Lord Shonus]

Unfortunately, race and economy are tied together. How do you think we ended up with black ghettos to begin with? How do you think their neighborhoods fell apart, businesses left, schools didn't receive the money they need?

The "ghettos" came about because suburban living became the fashionable thing after WWII, leading to huge numbers of middle-class and upper middle class homes in the inner city being sold at bargain prices to finance a nice suburban home. Most of these were bought up either by the more successful lower middle class families (that's how my family came into possession of this house) who saw an opportunity to live in much greater luxury than they had previously been able to afford (particularly since so many had a few years of combat pay boosting their bank accounts), or to what would come to be called slumlords - people who bought in large quantity and rented out to lower class families (who, again, had the opportunity for far more luxurious housing than previously) at low rates. The jobs followed the middle class, and the communities collapsed because they no longer had the tax base to support the institutions.

[nenjin]

Unfortunately, race and economy are tied together. How do you think we ended up with black ghettos to begin with? How do you think their neighborhoods fell apart, businesses left, schools didn't receive the money they need?

The "ghettos" came about because suburban living became the fashionable thing after WWII, leading to huge numbers of middle-class and upper middle class homes in the inner city being sold at bargain prices to finance a nice suburban home. Most of these were bought up either by the more successful lower middle class families (that's how my family came into possession of this house) who saw an opportunity to live in much greater luxury than they had previously been able to afford (particularly since so many had a few years of combat pay boosting their bank accounts), or to what would come to be called slumlords - people who bought in large quantity and rented out to lower class families (who, again, had the opportunity for far more luxurious housing than previously) at low rates. The jobs followed the middle class, and the communities collapsed because they no longer had the tax base to support the institutions.

Go check out Redlining in Chicago. Or read the second article I linked, as it paints the continuum of black migration from the South during the years of Jim Crow. Your explanation is very sound for the public's understanding of what happened to the inner city. It's also incomplete. Suffice it to say, blacks were actively exploited to concentrate them in the inner city when they went looking to buy their first homes, because it controlled the price of real estate based on race. Where black people lived, the prices were low. Really low. Where they didn't live at all, the prices were the highest.

[SalmonGod]

You're ignoring the primary motivator of the riots though, Shonus.  Discrimination by police.  All this other stuff factors into the anger that is being channeled, but police behavior is the spark (or should we say flamethrower) that's lighting that gasoline-soaked bonfire.  Even if you're white and live in a poor/violent community, you still don't have to worry nearly as much as a black person does about being extra-judicially executed, or about facing astronomically higher conviction rates and harsher sentences for the same crimes as a white person.

[Frumple]

Here's some fairly interesting insight on the causes of the Baltimore situation, actually. Bit of a read, but it seems to be a pretty decent one.

[Lord Shonus]

You're ignoring the primary motivator of the riots though, Shonus.  Discrimination by police.  All this other stuff factors into the anger that is being channeled, but police behavior is the spark (or should we say flamethrower) that's lighting that gasoline-soaked bonfire.  Even if you're white and live in a poor/violent community, you still don't have to worry nearly as much as a black person does about being extra-judicially executed, or about facing astronomically higher conviction rates and harsher sentences for the same crimes as a white person.

I don't deny that those problems exist, merely the attitude that every problem here can be blamed on Whitey, and that there's no chance of reform because white people don't give enough of a shit. Particularly in cases like this one, where the heavy end of the hammer's already coming down on the people responsible.

[nenjin]

Here's some fairly interesting insight on the causes of the Baltimore situation, actually. Bit of a read, but it seems to be a pretty decent one.

That was an informative read, thanks.

You're ignoring the primary motivator of the riots though, Shonus.  Discrimination by police.  All this other stuff factors into the anger that is being channeled, but police behavior is the spark (or should we say flamethrower) that's lighting that gasoline-soaked bonfire.  Even if you're white and live in a poor/violent community, you still don't have to worry nearly as much as a black person does about being extra-judicially executed, or about facing astronomically higher conviction rates and harsher sentences for the same crimes as a white person.

I don't deny that those problems exist, merely the attitude that every problem here can be blamed on Whitey, and that there's no chance of reform because white people don't give enough of a shit. Particularly in cases like this one, where the heavy end of the hammer's already coming down on the people responsible.

If the race that controls the bulk of the wealth, the influence and the power in this country doesn't think it's a serious problem and politically activate to stop it, it's not going to happen. If senators and governors and mayors talk to their white constituents asking "What are your biggest problems", and one of the answers isn't "the conduct of our police", you won't see a dramatic change that actually salves the anger of the people taking the beatings and/or dying.

And I think a big first part of making it a political priority, is actually trying to care about their situation, despite the fact that for many white people they don't know or hang out or even associate with black people. Not out of racism but simply because our worlds are often that far apart, sometimes despite living next to each other.