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[Angle]

Personally, My problem with Israel arises when they feel they have the right to kick the people who were already living there out of their homes and treat them like second-class citizens. That shit's not cool, yo.

[mainiac]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

I didn't claim to have proof I was just saying that it didn't fit with my life experience.

Reading the context, this isn't special pleading at all, he's backing up a point that you challenged.

You are saying he backed up the point that Jewish students are, as a general statement, required to denounce Israel and aren't allowed on campus.  With a single source about a single student being asked a dickish question.  The second "source" is an opinion article.

Whelp I'm gonna disagree with you there.

[wierd]

The most likely incorrect (or at least, incomplete) understanding I have of the "Isreal problem" goes a bit like this:

At some point, the jews leave the physical locality of isreal. (This has happened before in history after judea was captured by the persians)
The jews still view the physical locality of isreal as their ancestral homeland.
Other people move in after they are displaced, and make it their home. (Nature abhors a vacuum)
This dispersed diaspora of jewish people gets blamed for a lot of shit, some true, some false. (Comparison, The Roma people, aka gypsies)
This persecution results in the Nazi genocides against them, as well as a cultural identify of being persecuted/wronged.
As a gesture of good will toward them, the allies do what they shouldnt have done, and gave the territories that the nazi's captured in the second world war that were of significance to the jewish people, TO the jewish people.  The nazis had captured the jerusalem area with minitary force from the other indigenous peoples.
This pisses the indigenous peoples off, and starts the "Destroy isreal!" motive.  The people that were kicked out by the nazis wanted to go home, but couldnt, because the jews were there now, and the allies were protecting them.
A coalition against this occupation reached a head in the 60s & 70s, when Egypt invaded, and was subsequently defeated, which is when isreal annexed the west bank.
This annexation, coupled with the zionist nationalist phenomenon, displaced even more indigenous people, making things worse.
The indigenous people want the jews gone. The jews view their claim to the land as being literally god-given, and sacrosanct.

There is no solution to this problem.

[Descan]

Jews were already starting to migrate back for about 50-100 years by the time Israel was founded. I think by the founding of Israel they were... 30%? Of the population. And the Nazis never took it, Britain controlled it after taking it from the Ottomans as Mandatory Palestine.

[wierd]

Ahh-- As I said, probably incomplete/incorrect.

Regardless, the indigenous people there were displaced militarily, and the jews planted there, and protected. This started the shitstorm.

[Lord Shonus]

Essentialy, the Roman siezed what they called province of Judea from the Jews, this passed to the East Roman Empire (AKA the Byzantine Empire), whcih was eventually incorporated into the Ottoman Empire. The territory was taken from the Ottoman Empire by the British Empire after WWI, and the British decided to grant it to the Jews in recognition of the atrocities committed against them (and recognition of Britain's inability to keep the Empire together.) Promptly, everyone surrounding the new stated declared "That's OUR land, and we'll kill every man woman and child there if you don't give it to us immediately."

[Descan]

Not even planted there, the British tried to stem Jewish immigration (at one point, the British Commissioner published an edict banning Jews from purchasing land in over 95% of Israel, and in general, they tried to close the borders against Jews just like every other state at the time)

It was only after the Holocaust that things started to turn to the Jews favour in regards to Israel. Even then, it took a few years before the UN got involved, and a lot of fun stuff happened in the meantime. Like guerilla warfare!

[Rose]

Posting to watch.

[Vilanat]

Maybe you can cite your case rather than just saying "look it up", I guess I have to infer that your position is that there are a lot of UN resolutions against Israel. Two ways that could be interpreted: either everyone at the UN is a big meanie picking on Israel all the time, or Israel does a lot of stuff that pisses other countries off. I'm siding with "Israel pissed people off".

Israel has a ridiculous, unproportional number of resolutions against it because of the Arab and Muslim nations. its Israel existence that pisses a lot of Arab and muslim countries off, so it can't do much about it other than go back to the gas chambers, which understandably, they wont.

Obviously, other Non-arab countries are also siding with anti-israel resolutions, but that's perfectly understandable. the Arab countries has shit tons of Oil, Money, Power and Influence.

The whole recent fiasco in Argentina about that persecutor who got murdered was because he was about to expose Argentina's actions of hiding Iran's involvement in a terror attack in buenos aires so they could have a Wheat for Oil trade agreement. if Argentina is swayable to this degree, then a lot of (I'd say most) other African, Asian, East european and Latin american countries are swayable exactly the same way.

[wierd]

This strikes me as a little naive.

It is important to understand the differences in culture that the middle east has in comparison with western world culture.

Western world culture has a more cosmopolitan view; No specific ethnic group has disproportionate claims to any parcel of land; all kinds of ethnic backgrounds mill around and cohabitate in a cosmopolitan political setting, and equal opportunities and laws prohibiting discrimination are the norm.

In comparison, the middle east follows a more strict, religiously backed form of social convention. (Several such conventions, but we are being general here.) This is true of both the jewish orthodox types, and the muslim orthodox types.  Both hold mutually exclusive views over who is the superior one, and due to the conventions of the their respective cultures, simply cannot abide the co-habitation of the other.

Western countries see this internal strife and persecution, and say "Whoa, whoa whoa-- What the fuck guys? No- that's not cool." So, when they see zionist driven shennanigans coming from isreal, they say "Stop that shit, and live in peace with the palistinians, we know you can do it."

Israel says "The Palestinians hate us, and we hate them."
The Palestinians say "The jewish assholes all must die."

Israel tries to kill the Palestinians off.
The Palestinians use guerilla tactics against Israel
The west tries to force its views of comsopolitanism, and makes things worse.

I don't discount the "Political bribery" angle-- just that the pupulist views are not typically that way, and focus more on the cultural difference problem.

[mainiac]

Well obviously western culture is superior because we are less intolerant and both Arabs and Jews should just let us run the place.  Problem solved.

[Sheb]

Should I start a middle eastern thread?

[smjjames]

Isn't there already a Middle East thread somewhere?

Anyways, yeah this has derailed big time.

[Helgoland]

Should I start a middle eastern thread?

These usually end worse than the religion and gender threads - last time burningpet got banned, and a few of his opinions aside he was a good guy. No need to have this repeat.

[4maskwolf]

Should I start a middle eastern thread?

These usually end worse than the religion and gender threads - last time burningpet got banned, and a few of his opinions aside he was a good guy. No need to have this repeat.

Didn't burningpet bite the dust because of the abrahamic religions thread, though?