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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1570685 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18900 on: June 04, 2016, 03:11:22 am »

I can't even begin to imagine what could fix the immigration system at this point, even with legal immigrants the US has far and away the greatest volume of immigration in the world. It'll take an entirely new conception of how to process immigrants to even have a chance.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18901 on: June 04, 2016, 03:30:51 am »

What was your reason for leaving Canada?
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18902 on: June 04, 2016, 03:56:46 am »

I can't even begin to imagine what could fix the immigration system at this point, even with legal immigrants the US has far and away the greatest volume of immigration in the world. It'll take an entirely new conception of how to process immigrants to even have a chance.
Don't worry, Trump will fix the tangled-up immigration system just like Alexander fixed the Gordian Knot.
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Amperzand

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18903 on: June 04, 2016, 04:19:28 am »

But with
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
instead of
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
:V
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Frumple

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18904 on: June 04, 2016, 05:54:12 am »

I can't even begin to imagine what could fix the immigration system at this point, even with legal immigrants the US has far and away the greatest volume of immigration in the world. It'll take an entirely new conception of how to process immigrants to even have a chance.
... y'know, I had to actually check that statement, 'cause I figured... well. The states say a lot of stuff like that. And there seems to be a sorta' pattern to 'em, some days.

Turns out it's sorta' right! Also sorta' wrong. As more or less expected, s'the charity thing again, except even more exaggerated. The US does indeed have the highest raw number of immigrants.* Per capita? Per capita we're sixty something spots down, going by the 2015 numbers listed here (we do a bit better by the '05 data, being only 40-ish down). There's over sixty countries in the world with higher immigrant to non-immigrant population ratios. Sixteen if you only include those with an immigrant population over a million. Still second (germany beats us by ~.5% by 2015 numbers -- goddamnit germany, it's the charity thing again, you bastards) if you include those with an immigrant population over ten million.

Of perhaps particular interest is that we're apparently one of the very few countries (one of only six, of those included in those linked numbers) that has a larger portion of the world's immigrant population than we do immigrants compared to our own -- most countries seem to have more of their population be immigrants than their total immigrant population is compared to the world immigrant population, than the US does. Considering it's before six AM right now and I'm barely awake, I'm not entirely sure what it means, but it definitely stands out.

... really, it looks a lot like our "entirely new conception of how to process immigrants" roughly boils down to "throw at least as big a chunk of our country at it as several dozen other countries seem to manage." Again. Maybe a side order of be as efficient about the process as who knows how many other places. Again.

Noooot going to lie, as noted above I kinda' expected something like that when I went looking. Our country seems to like making statements along those lines, using the sheer weight of being the third most populous single country and having a fuckhuge economy to conceal relative underperformance...

Though hey, I guess we are doing better than china or india, the two countries with an even larger population! I, uh. I'unno 'bout y'all, but the words damning with faint praise come to mind >_>

*The rate was a bit more of a bitch to find... seems like everyone prefers to keep the numbers as a net migration rate than provide it separated in any format that's easily accessible and trivially findable. Still, on that metric, our own cia numbers put us at rank 34 (since their website apparently doesn't allow for direct links to the data, look under people and society, net migration). 33 other countries that have more people coming in than leaving, per capita, than we do. Canada's got us beat. Also on all the other per capita metrics I checked regarding the stuff above. Damnit canada, hats aren't supposed to be smug!

E: It's just... is it really so much to bloody ask that for once, when you go and check the data it actually agrees we're unequivocally kicking ass? Gets annoying to keep seeing us say we're the best at X and then it turns out fifty other goddamn countries or some shite like that are actually better at X per person. I don't just want to outweigh these blighters, I wanna' outlift 'em, too!
« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 06:14:51 am by Frumple »
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BFEL

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18905 on: June 04, 2016, 07:12:38 am »

So no opinions whatsoever on the Trump supporters in San Jose being attacked while police stand by doing jack all? With news organizations and politicians critizing the victims for not "taking the beatings"?

Came here to see what people who aren't my mom think about it, if there was another side to the story or such but apparently no-one even noticed?
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18906 on: June 04, 2016, 07:16:18 am »

That's par for the course, honestly. Protesters for BLM, etc. attack Trump supporters because ???, Trump supporters are blamed for causing violence, etc., police can't do anything without being called racist and attacked... the whole thing's retarded, but what can you do.
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BFEL

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18907 on: June 04, 2016, 07:26:22 am »

the whole thing's retarded, but what can you do.
Actually discuss it instead of letting media control peoples opinions on it? :P
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Sheb

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18908 on: June 04, 2016, 08:12:56 am »

So no opinions whatsoever on the Trump supporters in San Jose being attacked while police stand by doing jack all? With news organizations and politicians critizing the victims for not "taking the beatings"?

Came here to see what people who aren't my mom think about it, if there was another side to the story or such but apparently no-one even noticed?

Whut? What I read was that a bunch of anti-Trumpist got arrested, and I haven't seen anyone saying they should have taken the beating.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18909 on: June 04, 2016, 09:32:12 am »

I can't even begin to imagine what could fix the immigration system at this point, even with legal immigrants the US has far and away the greatest volume of immigration in the world. It'll take an entirely new conception of how to process immigrants to even have a chance.
... y'know, I had to actually check that statement, 'cause I figured... well. The states say a lot of stuff like that. And there seems to be a sorta' pattern to 'em, some days.

Turns out it's sorta' right! Also sorta' wrong.
It's not "sorta' wrong", this is not a per capita issue. Every individual immigrant legal or illegal enhances the legal, financial, and bureaucratic load against the system. Every country in the world, no matter how small, can afford to have a few hundred people working immigration. Each and every one of those people can process multiple cases on a regular basis. This is why the bulk matters. If you have 100 citizens and 20 immigrants then you need 1 person to process 100% of your immigrants, which is easy. If you have 310,000,000 citizens and 2,000,000 immigrants than you need a metric fuckton of people to process only half of your immigrants because the other half are afraid you'll kill them or deport them to Whatthefuckistan where someone else will kill them, which is obscenely difficult. The US cannot possibly devote the facilities and manpower for each individual case, doubly so when a large portion of them are illegal immigrants and some portions of the country will continuous clamor for their imprisonment and deportation while others demand amnesty programs, creating a political burden on top of everything else.

Also, the statistics for some of the per capita are highly misleading. Take Qatar, for example, which has one of the very highest immigrant ratios in the world - because the country is built on imported labor, none of whom are permitted to become citizens and some of whom are forced into what is more or less slavery after having their passports confiscated post arrival.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 09:35:35 am by MetalSlimeHunt »
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mainiac

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18910 on: June 04, 2016, 10:06:14 am »

No, but he likes misrepresenting what I say.

I like putting the two things you say next to each other.  You will notice that you didnt take two statements of mine, you took one statement of mine.  What I oh so cruelly did was take two of your positions and show them together.

Orange Wizard supports meritocratic hiring.  Orange wizard supports 97% of writers being white.

Ironically, you favor "education" in some form or other but you are really annoyed by this.  Now to be a real heel, let's add a statement of mine to frame the two statements of yours...

Orange Wizard totally isn't racist but Orange Wizard claims to want the most talented people hired and Orange Wizard supports 97% of writers being white.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 10:14:11 am by mainiac »
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Sheb

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18911 on: June 04, 2016, 10:14:41 am »


It's not "sorta' wrong", this is not a per capita issue. Every individual immigrant legal or illegal enhances the legal, financial, and bureaucratic load against the system. Every country in the world, no matter how small, can afford to have a few hundred people working immigration. Each and every one of those people can process multiple cases on a regular basis. This is why the bulk matters. If you have 100 citizens and 20 immigrants then you need 1 person to process 100% of your immigrants, which is easy. If you have 310,000,000 citizens and 2,000,000 immigrants than you need a metric fuckton of people to process only half of your immigrants because the other half are afraid you'll kill them or deport them to Whatthefuckistan where someone else will kill them, which is obscenely difficult. The US cannot possibly devote the facilities and manpower for each individual case, doubly so when a large portion of them are illegal immigrants and some portions of the country will continuous clamor for their imprisonment and deportation while others demand amnesty programs, creating a political burden on top of everything else.


I don't get why your imaginary country can easily afford to have 1% of its population do nothing but immigration control while the US cannot affore the metric fuckton people it'd need, what with having a huger population.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18912 on: June 04, 2016, 10:21:42 am »


It's not "sorta' wrong", this is not a per capita issue. Every individual immigrant legal or illegal enhances the legal, financial, and bureaucratic load against the system. Every country in the world, no matter how small, can afford to have a few hundred people working immigration. Each and every one of those people can process multiple cases on a regular basis. This is why the bulk matters. If you have 100 citizens and 20 immigrants then you need 1 person to process 100% of your immigrants, which is easy. If you have 310,000,000 citizens and 2,000,000 immigrants than you need a metric fuckton of people to process only half of your immigrants because the other half are afraid you'll kill them or deport them to Whatthefuckistan where someone else will kill them, which is obscenely difficult. The US cannot possibly devote the facilities and manpower for each individual case, doubly so when a large portion of them are illegal immigrants and some portions of the country will continuous clamor for their imprisonment and deportation while others demand amnesty programs, creating a political burden on top of everything else.

I don't get why your imaginary country can easily afford to have 1% of its population do nothing but immigration control while the US cannot affore the metric fuckton people it'd need, what with having a huger population.
It's not about the percentage! My whole point is that this isn't measurable via percentages of immigration and labor!

Have to pay all of them, and their bosses, and the buildings they work in, and the expeditionary ones for people who won't show up at an office, and the legions of lawyers to hold off ICE whenever illegal immigrants are involved, which they always are, and the materials costs, and having your entire operation occasionally upended by ICE, the CDC, and Republican Presidents, and an ever expanding myriad of other things. And that's if it all works out smoothly and as intended, which it never ever fucking does, and that the immigrants always have a perfect attendance to the system, which is laughable.

The complexity of all this expands exponentially as more people get involved. Even though I mentioned it, it isn't really a question of money. Paying for just the immigration is fine, but all of this cascading shit is impossible to pay for. Hence why I said we need a new conception.
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Sheb

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18913 on: June 04, 2016, 10:27:40 am »

Ok, let me rephrase it differently then. Can you sustain your claim that

Quote
The complexity of all this expands exponentially as more people get involved.

That seems counterintuitive to me. On the contrary, I'd expect economies of scale.
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mainiac

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #18914 on: June 04, 2016, 10:35:04 am »

Ok, let me rephrase it differently then. Can you sustain your claim that

Quote
The complexity of all this expands exponentially as more people get involved.

That seems counterintuitive to me. On the contrary, I'd expect economies of scale.

I can't even begin to think what an "all else being equal" comparison would mean in this situation so I dont know if we can expect anything at all.  Just give in and embrace madness.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.
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