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[Frumple]

I make jokes about Americans conflating even slightly left-wing economics with socialism/communism and not knowing the difference between them, but I swear it's not even an exaggeration any more.

It hasn't been an exaggeration since "Red Scare" became a thing.

... also, to the stuff that was talked about later, seriously, the ACA wasn't shit. Admittedly it kinda' screwed up on the single payer front, but a lot of the other stuff it shoved through was fucking golden, and it's done a massive amount since it was implemented and grew its teeth in. There's definitely still room to improve (which is indicative of how far in the proverbial hole we were and still are, more than anything), but the ACA managed a hell of a lot more than just being better than nothing.

And no, the ACA wasn't just a fucking welfare plan for insurance companies. It shoved a goddamn shitton through about stuff like pricing and whatnot, too. People seem to constantly forgot that the ACA wasn't even remotely single facet, the bloody thing hurled a truckton of crap at the wall to see what would stick, and there's plenty of it that did stick.

... though yeah, amusingly enough tying back into the start of the post, people dislike single payer primarily because they consider it socialist, so far as I'm aware, more than just about anything about it. Lingering dirty commie syndrome, shooting us in the foot yet again *shrugs*

[SalmonGod]

Clinton's name was put into the spotlight because she lead a major healthcare initiative.

I'd seen references to this reform package recently when reading up on Clinton, but didn't realize it was heavily publicized.  I'd never heard of it until recently, and to be fair, I was only 11 when that was current.  But I still question.  The Lewinski scandal has been consistently referenced in American culture since it happened.  The Clinton health care reform effort of 1993 doesn't seem to have had that sort of staying power in the American public's very short political memory.  So you've given me something to consider on my stance regarding why people believe she has more political experience than Sanders, but you haven't convinced me that she is or completely sold me on this alternate explanation as to why people believe that she is.  When I was bringing up this exact issue with my parents last week (my belief as to why people see Hillary as more experienced), they only told me it made sense.  No mention of "oh but there was this healthcare stuff before that" from a couple people of somewhat above average political awareness, who would normally correct me on things like that.

Fun fact, one of the reasons why it failed was because an obscure Senator named Bernie Sanders thought it would take attention away from single payer so he pulled his support from it.

He was in his first term as a Congressman at the time.  Not a Senator.  It looks like opposition to the initiative was pretty extreme, and Bernie's lack of support was a blip on the radar.  If you want to play at this logic, then I can blame Hillary for the Iraq War.  But I don't, because I know that's ridiculous.

[Frumple]

Mm... though I also haven't exactly paid attention to it, isn't the experience thing mostly because of what they were involved in more than anything? Closeness/familiarity with the position of the presidency and what it involves, even ignoring the whole first lady thing. I don't think it's hard to argue that hillary's been a lot higher up the proverbial totem pole than bernie has been, and does have more exposure (either directly as secretary or otherwise) to positions that were closer to what the POTUS would actually be doing.

Though it's almost certainly partially due simply to the fact that sanders has been, as you noticed, much lower key than hillary has, even if the political experience isn't as disparate as some would argue.

But yeah, personally, it's not the experience issue that would have stopped me from voting sanders if he had a chance in hell of taking the primary in my state. Friggin' economic/trade policy is the touch of death for him, t'me, even if I like a lot of 'is other junk.

[mainiac]

He was in his first term as a Congressman at the time.  Not a Senator.  It looks like opposition to the initiative was pretty extreme, and Bernie's lack of support was a blip on the radar.  If you want to play at this logic, then I can blame Hillary for the Iraq War.  But I don't, because I know that's ridiculous.

It doesn't make him responsible, it just shows where his priorities lie.  Sure he loves single payer.  But he doesn't give a shit about the compromises you need to get shit done.

[TheBiggerFish]

He was in his first term as a Congressman at the time.  Not a Senator.  It looks like opposition to the initiative was pretty extreme, and Bernie's lack of support was a blip on the radar.  If you want to play at this logic, then I can blame Hillary for the Iraq War.  But I don't, because I know that's ridiculous.

It doesn't make him responsible, it just shows where his priorities lie.  Sure he loves single payer.  But he doesn't give a shit about the compromises you need to get shit done.

He doesn't?

[mainiac]

Well it shows the choice he made on the past on a big fucking deal issue.  If you want to appeal to the voters who consider incremental reform beneath them it comes at a price.

I'm not happy about Clinton voting for the Iraq war for example.  But I think the big issues are things like making sure the medicaid expansion reaches poor people in the states where republican state governments blocked it.  Boring shit.  The exact sort of thing that Bernie Sanders wasn't a team player about in the past.

[SalmonGod]

I can accept the incrementalism as most practical argument on some things, but not others.  It disappoints you that Clinton voted for the Iraq War.  It disappoints me that Bernie wouldn't vote for health care reform that would make things better, even if it's not as much as he'd like.  Assuming that was his reasoning, and not actual opposition for some reason.  I'm not reading into the 1993 proposals in detail.

But I feel that moderation and focus on steady single-issue progress as a standard has been apologism and obfuscation for sliding into a worse situation in general for too long.  We get some modest health care reform passed.  We get some gay marriage rights.  Meanwhile surveillance, secrecy, and generally authoritarian behavior continue to get worse.  Criminalization of activism continues to get worse.  Criminalization of the poor continues to get worse.  Belligerence and criminality of law enforcement continues to get worse.  Inequality accelerates at an obscene pace, even as we're told the economy is recovering.  The environment teeters on the brink of unrecoverable.

People get sick of it and motivated to actually get something done in a way that compares to how these issues were fought against in the past.  And just as in the past, we're told "Whoa.  Slow down.  This isn't going to work out for you.  We promise we're working on this.  Just give us time.  I'm sorry, but you just have to bend over and take it for now."  But unlike those who got shit done in the past, we're listening to them.  And things continue getting worse.  And our president champion of the realistic moderate goes and pardons a few hundred out some hundreds of thousands of non-violent drug offenders, but apparently continues to support the incarceration of an unprecedented number of whistleblowers who revealed horrible crimes (because regardless of how you feel about what they did, they broke the law, right?), without a word on the criminals who were exposed.  He expands offshore oil drilling after one of the worst environmental disasters in history because of offshore oil drilling.  And we're supposed to believe that the realistic moderate is on our side.

It's a tougher sell than just saying "you're not realistic".  I have to understand why I should trust someone who repeats the rhetoric that people like myself have come to associate with a lot of things getting worse, while a small number of things get slightly better, and who has a history of association with the people responsible for things getting worse.  Who served on the board of directors for Wal-Mart of all things.  Who can't even keep her story straight on whether she wants to eliminate coal as an energy source, depending on who she's talking to.

[mainiac]

I fundamentally disagree.  Things are getting better.

[NullForceOmega]

I fundamentally disagree.  Things are horrible.

[Orange Wizard]

I fundamentally disagree.  Things are getting better.

From the outside looking in, the US is going downhill in a number of ways. Some things are improving (like healthcare) but the changes are only a very small step with how far there is left to go.
Obviously I'm the local America-hater so the bias is real, but I think it's wrong to say things are getting better. If they are, it's very slow, and widespread reforms are needed to see any actual progress.

[SquatchHammer]

I fundamentally disagree.  Things are getting better.

From the outside looking in, the US is going downhill in a number of ways. Some things are improving (like healthcare) but the changes are only a very small step with how far there is left to go.
Obviously I'm the local America-hater so the bias is real, but I think it's wrong to say things are getting better. If they are, it's very slow, and widespread reforms are needed to see any actual progress.

From someone that's from New Zeland you dont understand how fucked is the American health care system is. It needs a complete overhaul but if companies can have enough "human rights" to basically buy out anyone they need to keep it the way they get the most profits as possible while people suffer.

[Reelya]

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/728297587418247168

"Happy #CincoDeMayo! The best taco bowls are made in Trump Tower Grill. I love Hispanics!"

The best thing about Trump is that you can't tell a parody from the real thing. I'm still not convinced Donald Trump's twitter feed isn't a parody.

[SalmonGod]

One of my teammates at work died two days ago, because she was determined to avoid another hospital bill, until it was too late.

[Orange Wizard]

One of my teammates at work died two days ago, because she was determined to avoid another hospital bill, until it was too late.

Oh yeah, you posted about that then. It's really sad, and I can understand the mentality. Something's gotta give when funds are tight.

From someone that's from New Zeland you dont understand how fucked is the American health care system is.

Quite the contrary. A good 80% of my posts in this thread take the form of "America is shit at X".

[Shadowlord]

SalmonGod: You should mention that in the WTF thread where people are saying things like "bleeding from the nose is perfectly normal, even if you've been really sick. I mean, it happens to me all the time."

I'm paraphrasing and I don't remember who. Hopefully not you, ha ha, because that would be embarrassing.