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[RedKing]

Don't worry, I'm too old to change.

[mainiac]

Actually it was largely an invention of the RAF.

Actually it was largely an invention of Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Warsaw_in_World_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotterdam_Blitz

Although some of the credit belongs to the Japanese.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Chongqing

Y'know, it's funny.  This war happens and there is all this propaganda that depicts these regimes as horrible and militaristic with no respect for human life.  And afterwards the historians pick through the ruble and that turns out... to be completely and utterly correct.

[smjjames]

Carpet bombing was really the only effective strategy at the time anyway because there were no precision guidance systems at all (other than maybe some very rudimentary ones) in the bombs.

[Lord Shonus]

You don't need any sort of precision guidance in a bomb to be much more accurate than carpet bombing allows - all you need is a good optical sight, an accurate reading of your speed and altitude, tables or a mechanical computer to use these data to properly angle your sight, and the willingness to accept very heavy casualties because you're charging straight into masses of fighters and enough AAA to block out the sun. All of the warring powers had the first three, only one (the USAAF) had the last one. Of course, the decision to stick with daylight raids had much more to do with making sure the target was destroyed than any humanitarian grounds.

[redwallzyl]

Just saw on the CNN live blog that Jeb is suspending campaign very soon.

Jeb!fw

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Rip tortoise

poor tortoise!

[mainiac]

because you're charging straight into masses of fighters and enough AAA to block out the sun.

Neither of which applied in any of the examples I gave.

Carpet bombing was really the only effective strategy at the time anyway because there were no precision guidance systems at all (other than maybe some very rudimentary ones) in the bombs.

That's a problem for high altitude strategic bombers.  However carpet bombing was first done with dive bombers which could hit the broad side of a barn with practice.

[Shadowlord]

Carpet bombing was really the only effective strategy at the time anyway because there were no precision guidance systems at all (other than maybe some very rudimentary ones) in the bombs.

Ehhh, bombers managed to hit battleships. Sometimes. With torpedos. Moving on...

Also, @Lord Shonus, the B-17 was ridiculously tough, so that wasn't entirely suicidal.

[mainiac]

With a resounding victory of zero delagates from South Carolina, Marco Rubio seems to have eaten Cruz's share of the predict wise odds making.

I dont particularly see what Cruz's motivation is to drop out, even with a third place finish.  It's not like he loves the republican establishment.  Playing spoiler to keep Rubio from winning and handing the nomination to Trump might be a good thing in Cruz's book.

[misko27]

Actually it was largely an invention of the RAF.

Actually it was largely an invention of Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Warsaw_in_World_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotterdam_Blitz

Although some of the credit belongs to the Japanese.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Chongqing

Y'know, it's funny.  This war happens and there is all this propaganda that depicts these regimes as horrible and militaristic with no respect for human life.  And afterwards the historians pick through the ruble and that turns out... to be completely and utterly correct.

I would argue the Japanese were doing it first. I mean, after all, the Second Sino-Japanese War started in 1931, and it was still going on (although after an initial burst of activity it was more subdued until the Marco Polo Bridge incident in 1937) until the war in Asia was ended by the non-asian Great Powers. They got in quite a fair share of bombs during that period.

[Lord Shonus]

because you're charging straight into masses of fighters and enough AAA to block out the sun.

Neither of which applied in any of the examples I gave.

At Guernica and Warsaw the Luftwaffe were absurdly short-handed - only ~800 aircraft capable of carrying a bomb of any kind participated in the entire invasion of Poland and the entire strength of the Guernica raid was a mere 40 bombers, most of which carried very light bombs. Under those conditions, a military knock-out blow of any kind was an impossibility, and morale damage was the only really achievable objective. It should also be noted that Hitler (who hoped to convince Britain and France to talk peace once German possession of Poland was a fact, a belief bolstered by the lack of any serious offensive from either) ordered that extreme care be taken to minimize civilian casualties in Warsaw. Since lack of proper bombers led the Luftwaffe to shovel (literally - they tossed them out with coal shovels) incindiary bombs out of transports, this was essentially impossible. Again, this was not out of any concern for human life (statements by Hitler in private correspondance and Mein Kampf suggest that Poles were next on the extermination list after the Jews) but an attempt to control international reaction.

Also, @Lord Shonus, the B-17 was ridiculously tough, so that wasn't entirely suicidal.

So was the Lancaster and the Wellington. They were hacked out of the skies regardless, and so was the B-17. In one early raid, ~300 bombers attacked - 65 didn't come back, 122 needed extensive repairs, and only 33 were able to fly the next day.

[Shadowlord]

So was the Lancaster and the Wellington. They were hacked out of the skies regardless, and so was the B-17. In one early raid, ~300 bombers attacked - 65 didn't come back, 122 needed extensive repairs, and only 33 were able to fly the next day.

If that was the only way to get the job done, then it was the only way to get the job done.

Or,

[mainiac]

It should also be noted that Hitler ordered that extreme care be taken to minimize civilian casualties in Warsaw.

How on earth is authorizing firebombing of hospitals and residential areas compatible with minimizing civilian casualties?  Low level bombers deliberately hit hospitals and strafed civilian traffic on roads.

[Lord Shonus]

It should also be noted that Hitler ordered that extreme care be taken to minimize civilian casualties in Warsaw.

How on earth is authorizing firebombing of hospitals and residential areas compatible with minimizing civilian casualties?  Low level bombers deliberately hit hospitals and strafed civilian traffic on roads.

From what I've read, the order was filed in the "impossible to achieve" bin and ignored.

[mainiac]

It was a rather simple matter once the city was defenseless.  That was the state of Warsaw for nearly a month.

[Lord Shonus]

Bombing strictly military targets would have done little - when you're down to using transport planes that will probably drop almost as many bombs on your own people as the enemy, you're not going to do anything to troop concentrations or logistics centers. Thus, your only means of doing anything from the air is demonstrating the complete vulnerability to force surrender.