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[mainiac]

To be fair with a single-payer system you actually could essentially have what they describe as a net "negative" amount spent based on what they are comparing here since you would be gaining savings from the vastly simplified paperwork and paperwork pusher chain

Yes, a better electronics record system would save tons of money and even a significant number of lives.  But that wouldn't show up under prescription drugs in the budget.

[Shadowlord]

I glanced at the last page of the EU thread an hour ago or so. It's full of postnaughts! This is why I'm only reading this thread now. TOO MANY POSTS IN THIS FORUM TO READ unless I spend all day reading them.

[TheBiggerFish]

@Shadowlord:Huh?  But...There's more posts here than there.

[Shadowlord]

Yeah, but I wouldn't be quitting this thread and reading the other one instead, because that would be silly.

[Egan_BW]

Not like eyro poloktics matters before glorious ameripol anyway.

[Rolepgeek]

I almost wish there was a combined politics thread, because then I could make the comparison about how Europe is a vampire draining away all the progressives from America, and it's hurting them both. Everything's a poison, it's all in the dose. Too much liberalism or too much socialism, too much progressiveness or conservativeness...seems like an object lesson in what happens when a large first world country/economic mass strays too far left or right too quickly.

[hector13]

Apparently one problem in 'murrica is that the two parties have polarized a shitton since... '94 or '98.

Democrats are way left, and the Relublicans are way right, much moreso than ever before. There was a study I would point out, but phone and late and insomnia.

[Frumple]

Yeeeaaaah, no. There hasn't been a "way left" of note in the US since... what, around the start of the cold war? It's been longer than my lifetime. We used to have communist/socialist parties that people actually talked about, and the first socialist we've had of note in the last few decades has been bernie (and in most areas, far left he is not), so far as I'm aware of. The dems are notably centrist compared to, y'know, actual leftwing parties in other countries. There's been polarization, but in terms of policy the left in the US has not changed much in, well. Like I said, longer than my lifetime. Better than 20, 30 years. Sanders is the closest to a shift of any meaningful visibility I've seen in my personal ever, and he's still mostly just saying, "Hey, maybe we catch up with the moderate left in other social democracies?" The healthcare attempt (while much better than before) was still a conservative riddled mess in a lot of areas, the gains on social issues have been stuff that's been fought for for longer than I've been alive (and a hell of a lot further back than '94), militarily we've only barely started maybe drawing down on adventurism (much of which significant chunks of the democratic party cheerfully supported/supports)... there's just kind of a list. Outside of homosexual marriage and maybe some environmental/regulatory issues there hasn't really been meaningful leftwards successes that I can recall until the last few years, and a lot of areas the dems have, to all appearances, moved at least as in lockstep with the american right as before. They haven't been moving left so much as standing still as parts of the republican party goes insane.

Honestly, a lot of the support that sanders is getting is just from people that've gotten fed up with the lack of a notably left option over the last few decades -- there's been plenty of democrats, but most of the ones nominated and elected to president et al have been largely centrist, not really trying to rock the boat to any large degree. Somewhat understandable considering the realities of compromise they were trying to play with for a while as the conservative coalition started going utter bugnuts, but still. Some folks have been getting tired of the incremental and often eroded gains in the realm of welfare, education, etc., which is where a fair chunk of sanders' base is coming from.

[RedKing]

And the fact that "the left" is really centrist is part of what's allowed the Right to incrementally drag the country rightwards and redefine what "socialism" looks like. Like, requiring that people have medical insurance from one of a panoply of private medical insurers. 

Speaking of which, Trump is under fire for stating in a town hall yesterday that he likes the mandate in Obamacare, he's just do it better. Y'know...classier or something, I dunno. Maybe name it Trumpcare, that alone would up the class factor by 9000%. Maybe put some neon lighting on the website.

He's since walked back that comment, but it'll be interesting to see if that has any long-term effect.

[Powder Miner]

What's the point of requiring people to choose medical insurance? I mean, sure you have more people covered but... they didn't want it in the first place, and it generally seems to me like something the government really shouldn't be doing in the first place.

[mainiac]

What's the point of requiring people to choose medical insurance? I mean, sure you have more people covered but... they didn't want it in the first place, and it generally seems to me like something the government really shouldn't be doing in the first place.

1) It's more efficient to treat someone through insurance then through ad hoc aid.
2) Insurance only works if it's insurance, i.e. people get it before they need it.  Health insurance has an extreme assymetry of risk unlike car or home insurance so there is danger of an adverse selection death spiral. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_spiral_(insurance)
3) It's expensive for the rest of society for someone not to have insurance.

[Frumple]

It's mostly because they still end up accruing medical costs, to expand a bit on the point three maniac just ninja'd me on, which often ends up on the taxpayer's shoulders one way or another. It's also worth noting most people that didn't want it can still go without and be paying less than the insurance would cost them, they'll just be putting a bit into the system to offset their portion of their demographic's inevitable societal medical burden (assuming they have much income, anyway -- folks below the tax threshold aren't hit with the penalty). It's that whole internalizing externalities thing that is one of the primary functions of a working government, heh.

[RedKing]

Exactly. It's an attempt to reduce the problem of freeloaders. I feel like if Obama had effectively framed the mandate that way, it would have a lot less opposition.

[Shadowlord]

Marco Rubio, another Catholic candidate for the GOP nomination, said he has "tremendous respect and admiration" for the pope, but he added, "There's no nation on Earth that's more compassionate on immigration than we are."

"AMERICA IS BEST COUNTRY IN WORLD AT EVERYTHING" bullshit really cheeses me off.

How about Germany, eh? Under Angela Merkel's leadership, they've been extremely compassionate, taking in large numbers of refugees.

Meanwhile, here in America, Rubio's fellow candidates are effectively saying SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING, and even President Obama is sending South American refugees back to die, and only accepting a tiny amount of syrian refugees.

[sluissa]

Marco Rubio, another Catholic candidate for the GOP nomination, said he has "tremendous respect and admiration" for the pope, but he added, "There's no nation on Earth that's more compassionate on immigration than we are."

"AMERICA IS BEST COUNTRY IN WORLD AT EVERYTHING" bullshit really cheeses me off.

How about Germany, eh? Under Angela Merkel's leadership, they've been extremely compassionate, taking in large numbers of refugees.

Meanwhile, here in America, Rubio's fellow candidates are effectively saying SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING, and even President Obama is sending South American refugees back to die, and only accepting a tiny amount of syrian refugees.

To say otherwise is political suicide in an election year... or the belief is that it should have been anyway... Trump's getting away with the slightly oblique "Make America Great Again" Which isn't directly saying it's not great, but is implying that it has become less than great and needs returning to greatness.