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Author Topic: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning thread (It begins! Link on latest post)  (Read 84476 times)

~Neri

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #480 on: January 17, 2015, 03:39:40 pm »

It's more of the body results in personality. If you had a stunted body, feet where your ears should be, a flashlight growing out of your nose, your head's on your butt and your butt's on your left nipple, your right leg growing from your neck, and your left big toe replacing your mouth, I'm sure you would get quite unstable mentalky as well.

Well, that's just more fun if you want to play it that way, though I'd say that would mean a terrible inflexibility on the AI's part if it's only compatible with one specific kind of ship layout. Not that that's necessarily a problem.

Once again, here's the issue at hand: introducing interesting shortcomings to an AI in play in relation to perceived problems is a good thing. Saying "oh, my AI wouldn't go near a ship this small" or "no, no, no, my AI would go insane unless we put the water cooler here and only here, but all the lore is in my head so you're ("you" being the hypothetical gestalt entity of all the other players who'll surely see no reason not to go along with this idea and draw you up an exhaustive list of functions through a group effort involving 32 man-hours of careful design) going to have to run the finished design by me and I'll figure out if it works and what you should fix and how many ship functions we'll need in triplicate and if the AI Collective thinks it's good enough for the big leagues" is not a good idea. It is being needlessly difficult about things.

Similarly, making shortage of means and resources a game mechanic can potentially play out in an interesting way and is a good idea. Saying "oh, you players will need to tabulate the entire ship's means, but you sort that out amongst yourselves democratically, I'm sure it'll work out peachy, oh and this doesn't work that way, and surely this is too much space for the AI core, and you'll need to give me the exact distance from the reactor to the bathroom, because there might be a plot to be had later out of that detail" is also not a good idea. It is also being needlessly difficult about things.
A mismash of randomly placed parts = bad since you seem to not be getting what I mean.
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Insanegame27

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #481 on: January 17, 2015, 04:09:56 pm »

i agree with kevak for the most part of what has been said. I am about to go away for 10 days so i will try my hand at designing the ship.

also, i'm thinking a Truth and Reconciliation sized ship.

hugo, are we the only life-forms aboard? or are there alien NPC's as well as the drones?
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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #482 on: January 17, 2015, 04:17:55 pm »

ok so lets discuss some small things. I'm assuming we want some artificial gravity, since we're doing the hard scifi version it's going to be centrifugal. Now the thing is we probably don't want centrifugal gravity everywhere so the question is where should we put it?

Please note if we want to enter a room with centrifugal gravity we would probably have to wait till it slows down so the doorways would align as well as preventing the sudden stop from killing anyone inside (unless you want to stop borders, if so go ahead although it might remove potential !FUN! opportunities).

It would probably be a given that centrifugal gravity would be in our bedrooms/dorminatory since it would be rather small scale and the wait wouldn't be too annoying.

Of course we could just ditch artificial gravity and instead go for magnet boots.

Please note, gravity is a very important thing that most organisms rely on and removing it usually causes bad health effects to quote wikipedia
Quote
Humans are physiologically well-adapted to life on Earth. Consequently, spaceflight has many negative effects on the body.[1] The most significant adverse effects of long-term weightlessness are muscle atrophy and deterioration of the skeleton (spaceflight osteopenia).[2] Other significant effects include a slowing of cardiovascular system functions, decreased production of red blood cells, balance disorders, and a weakening of the immune system. Lesser symptoms include fluid redistribution (causing the "moon-face" appearance typical in pictures of astronauts experiencing weightlessness),[3][4] loss of body mass, nasal congestion, sleep disturbance, and excess flatulence. Most of these effects begin to reverse quickly upon return to Earth.

Of course some of the species on this ship are probably not that badly effected by zero-g such as the stigmites and myself since they are floating gas ballons and I am a light-worlder.

So the questions is, will centrifugal gravity be only confined to our living quarters or will it be on other parts of the ship and where. (also please don't put centrifugal gravity in the bridge since the pilot probably wouldn't like seeing the viewpoint constantly spinning). I currently vote for just in the living quarters and maybe science labs, magnet boots everywhere else.
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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #483 on: January 17, 2015, 04:22:09 pm »

Since we're doing two of each type of lab. One of each is centerfugal, most rooms are centerfugal.
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Harry Baldman

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #484 on: January 17, 2015, 05:04:21 pm »

-snip-

The point of this planning thread, you mean, not the game, is for people to prepare into an expedition into the unknown. The game is the expedition into the unknown itself, as far as I'm aware, unless you plan on the game being about the committee that evaluates the planning thread's results, which, while funny and entirely in line with the "interspecies cooperation" angle that may or may not be central to the game, would perhaps render the "space" part a little misleading, unless they discussed all this on the designed starship during a test run, in which case it's all good.

As for the importance of health effects of zero gravity in RP, I would strongly disagree. See, health effects of zero gravity in RP are something I would more classify as annoying and unnecessary rather than enriching, similarly to the alternate modes of respiration (which I would say is one of those lines when somebody's just veering into needless complication), and it's hard to imagine someone who actually would go "oh, me! I want my bones to degenerate and my circulation go haywire, it'll make for great RP! Just imagine me there, stepping out of the ship on a virgin world, and I break seven bones when I trip on the stairway leading down! Gold!" More likely there'll be someone who goes "oh, everyone else who didn't make something that doesn't undergo atrophy of muscles and bones in zero gravity should totally fall and break everything when they fall out, it'll be super fun when I get to point and laugh at them."

But let's say I make a list.

Spoiler: The Shiplist of Aelius (click to show/hide)

Would this be an appropriate phrasing of the design, for instance?

A mismash of randomly placed parts = bad since you seem to not be getting what I mean.

Oh, I did get what you mean. I was about to go into a tangent that it'll be assumed it's a rationally designed ship, just not with any kind of topological definition. That it is automatically assumed otherwise is another one of those bits where you're being needlessly difficult, you see. The bit about an AI being inflexible is a different version of saying that, since I envision it's similar to your computer deciding to stop working properly if you put the printer under the table instead of on a nearby shelf, if you get what I mean.

Also, hey! People are coming alive as I continually bitch at Kevak and the GM. Wonder if there's a correlation or is it just the bump that does this.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 06:43:23 pm by Harry Baldman »
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heydude6

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #485 on: January 17, 2015, 05:13:49 pm »

Well it's mostly cause we're finally making progress again. Also +1 to your ship design.

Also I updated my character sheet again, this time the back story isn't so angsty. And I also added another thing to the species tab.
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Lets use the ancient naval art of training war parrots. No one will realize they have been boarded by space war parrots until it is to late!
You can fake being able to run on water. You can't fake looking cool when you break your foot on a door and hit your head on the floor.

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #486 on: January 17, 2015, 05:26:23 pm »

We need considerably better manufactory capability. We intend to rely on drones. Gotta be able to build them. Same goes for mining. Any major damage or combat will need drones and major repairs. We need a dedicated refinery and smelters. I recommend ship being a 400m long so we actually have room.

Science, biolabs and isolation chambers, chemlabs and storage, engineering labs and bays, archeological labs and storage abd isolation chambers, other things. Need all of those. This is a science based endeavor.

Isolation chambers for crew. Can't let outbreaks have the chance to spread if there are any or if someone goes nuts.

We need functional weapons. That's mandatory.

We need shielding and better armor. Raise width to 80 meters.

Redundant systems are needed.
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WillowLuman

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #487 on: January 17, 2015, 05:43:43 pm »

GM notes: Here's why the gravity thing isn't just annoying fluff. I'm not going to play this like "you forgot to sleep in your centrifuge bed this turn, now your eyes are filling with fluid." At the start, we can assume that everything's working and people are doing what they need to do for their health. But if something should knock out the centrifugal gravity, then the people who will be hindered by that will be hindered, and so people not hindered by it may have to pull double duty, help the others out, etc. That's how these details enrich the RP.

Ship notes: Mostly looks good, but here are some things
  • Antimatter is a bit hard to come by. Fusion reactors (and propulsion) would make more sense.
  • FTL comms aren't a thing, except FTL snail-mail due to FTL drives. Which is only really FTL over interstellar distances.
  • More lab types would be good. Since we seem to have so many biologists, a biology lab at least would make sense. The chem lab can probably be expanded into a general materials lab, which would also be good for archeology (for instance).
  • Engineering can probably be combined with Manufactory.
  • Crew's quarters can also probably double as their isolation chambers.
  • Presumably a life-support system that can recycle everything indefinitely as long as it has power could be made. It would need to have said materials available for recycling, though, so ship damage could disable/disrupt it and require replenishment of chemicals.
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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #488 on: January 17, 2015, 06:04:41 pm »

I want archeology to be possible to isolate should something we dig up go poorly, so merging it with general materials/engineering isn't a good idea.

Also the manufactory should have an external hanger built into it for drone/mining probe launches.

We really need cargobays.
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Harry Baldman

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #489 on: January 17, 2015, 06:17:53 pm »

We need considerably better manufactory capability. We intend to rely on drones. Gotta be able to build them. Same goes for mining. Any major damage or combat will need drones and major repairs. We need a dedicated refinery and smelters. I recommend ship being a 400m long so we actually have room.

Well, the size is probably negotiable. There's probably some argument to be made for effective miniaturization in the space future, and it really makes no difference RP-wise if it's 400m long and 75% filled with manufacturing equipment or 200m long and 50% filled with manufacturing equipment, you're getting 100 meters of meatspace regardless (one-dimensional simplification made for ease of use).

Also, in terms of combat, getting ahead of ourselves, fit the first.

Also, royal we. What are the drones for?

Science, biolabs and isolation chambers, chemlabs and storage, engineering labs and bays, archeological labs and storage abd isolation chambers, other things. Need all of those. This is a science based endeavor.

Getting ahead of ourselves, fit the second. This runs under the assumption that we'll find life and/or culture. First priority is reestablishing contact with home and/or going back the opposite way, and implicitly finding out what happens when one enters an event horizon. If we cannot return and cannot make contact, this serves as the most effective indicator that no more money is to be devoted to Dark Star exploration, since information obtained on mission has absolutely no practical use in that event. Plus, lab equipment is stupidly expensive and not to be squandered on suicide missions.

Isolation chambers for crew. Can't let outbreaks have the chance to spread if there are any or if someone goes nuts.

Automatic doors with central overrides.

We need functional weapons. That's mandatory.

Getting ahead of ourselves, fit the third. Absence of life on other side is entirely possible. Also, robots are like functional weapons in many ways if murder of crew is needed.

We need shielding and better armor. Raise width to 80 meters.

What for? Space combat? In this case, getting ahead of ourselves, fit the fourth. Radiation shielding already extensive.

Redundant systems are needed.

Power has a solar array redundancy, not sure how you'd make a redundant life support system (spare delivery method?), could get a redundant AI from third party (the Independent Synthetic Intelligence Guild, for instance) in case the first one goes nuts, fabrication and mining systems too huge to add redundancies for, and redundant systems as a whole sound expensive, wouldn't you agree?

Finally, if there is indeed life (intelligent life, even) on the other side, much of the ship can probably be improved afterward to deal with this with improved manufacturing capacity should contact be impossible to establish and return is equally impossible.

GM notes: Here's why the gravity thing isn't just annoying fluff. I'm not going to play this like "you forgot to sleep in your centrifuge bed this turn, now your eyes are filling with fluid." At the start, we can assume that everything's working and people are doing what they need to do for their health. But if something should knock out the centrifugal gravity, then the people who will be hindered by that will be hindered, and so people not hindered by it may have to pull double duty, help the others out, etc. That's how these details enrich the RP.

Ship notes: Mostly looks good, but here are some things
  • Antimatter is a bit hard to come by. Fusion reactors (and propulsion) would make more sense.
  • FTL comms aren't a thing, except FTL snail-mail due to FTL drives. Which is only really FTL over interstellar distances.
  • More lab types would be good. Since we seem to have so many biologists, a biology lab at least would make sense. The chem lab can probably be expanded into a general materials lab, which would also be good for archeology (for instance).
  • Engineering can probably be combined with Manufactory.
  • Crew's quarters can also probably double as their isolation chambers.
  • Presumably a life-support system that can recycle everything indefinitely as long as it has power could be made. It would need to have said materials available for recycling, though, so ship damage could disable/disrupt it and require replenishment of chemicals.

If FTL comms aren't a thing, that's a bit troubling, since that considerably lessens chances of this being a successful expedition and raises the issue of why someone would finance this. That leaves return as the only possibility of success and potential utility of results, which may very well not come to pass at all. Why FTL and no FTL comms, though? One would think that if you solve the former, seemingly much more difficult problem, the latter would be simple to do.

Anyway, if you can't return from the other side, no point in further exploration if you don't have FTL comms is the logic I'm going with here, since the fruits of your labors will never be reaped and you're unable to get any form of feedback. Can't see a semi-wise investor agreeing to this kind of scheme, at any rate. Hm. Without FTL comms I don't see how a galactic society is in any way practical and how one would coordinate a multi-government exploration project. Or even how an interplanetary government could possibly work unless it's the interplanetary equivalent of city state unions.

Biology lab might be getting ahead of ourselves, fit the fifth, due to potential absence of life. To have a biology lab, all you need is a bunch of relatively simple glassware, a centrifuge if you're feeling fancy, some mechanical pipettes and a few crates of biochemical reagents. Maybe a fridge and an adjustable oven. Don't need dedicated space for much of that. As for biologists coming along, they're getting ahead of themselves, fit the sixth, though galactic gods bless the poor old space fodder.

I don't see how it'd be possible to recycle everything, given that a system that runs with no losses is practically impossible. But if you say that works, okay. More life support for the space fodder.

I'm not sure what you mean by Engineering, though. You mean the section in video games where there's lots of pipes and access tunnels? That's kind of implied, I suppose, since most systems should have redundant maintenance access points for organics. Or do you mean a room where all the engineers get together and talk about plans and systems and stuff? That could really be anything, then.

As for antimatter, you could presumably collect some from magnetospheres, where it's known to accumulate. In minute quantities, of course, so yes, probably better to have an antimatter-initiated fusion reactor as the power system of choice.

We really need cargobays.

Cargo bays, I would say, are whatever's left of the space on the ship when all else is accounted for. Should probably assume they're 90% full on departure. Manufacturing storage should be separate and empty on departure, and integrated into fabrication bay.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 06:28:02 pm by Harry Baldman »
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WillowLuman

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #490 on: January 17, 2015, 06:49:14 pm »

This is a venture into the unknown. What would investors think? That there must surely be a solid gold planetoid on the other side, and thus just send in a mining ship? It's a big unique phenomenon that no one knows the nature of, and thus probably contains information of unknown utility. Since anything could be inside, having all the science bases covered seems wise. If they wanted to survey a new mining claim, they have plenty of regular, non-event-horizon-covered space to explore. The spirit behind it would have to be more akin to "let's put a man on the moon" than "let's go survey the Congo."

Governments probably are structured like coalitions of more independence given to individual planets due to scale. It's that whole "months to cross the Atlantic" thing. Let's say FTL here (the one convention, since it's needed for this kind of coalition in the first place) requires mass to work, hence the inability to simply send signals faster than light.

Engineering is probably the same as manufacturing because that's where all the tools for the engineers to make stuff would be anyway.
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kj1225

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #491 on: January 17, 2015, 06:53:22 pm »

I'm still thinking it's either Humans of Reapers.
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~Neri

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #492 on: January 17, 2015, 07:14:38 pm »

I'm still thinking it's either Humans of Reapers.
Inb4 it's Zerg, Skynet, Borg, and Tyranids combined as one entity.
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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #493 on: January 17, 2015, 08:08:20 pm »

At this rate, this is what we'll end up with.
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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #494 on: January 17, 2015, 11:01:56 pm »

That's sort of the intention. We have literally no idea what's on the other side. But the probes that have been sent in presumably don't contradict the theory that there is SOMETHING on the other side. So we have to be prepared for anything. Anything that you CAN prepare for, at least. Arriving inside green-hot plasma is sort of hard to prepare for in hard sci fi.
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