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Author Topic: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning thread (It begins! Link on latest post)  (Read 85447 times)

~Neri

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #510 on: January 18, 2015, 01:03:20 am »

Yaaaaaah, good luck with that.
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kj1225

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #511 on: January 18, 2015, 01:10:25 am »

Yaaaaaah, good luck with that.
Don't need luck. After all, there's no way that any sane person would allow an A.I. that doesn't allow the third law of robotics to have that much power.
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~Neri

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #512 on: January 18, 2015, 01:12:06 am »

The third law is self preservation isn't it?
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kj1225

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #513 on: January 18, 2015, 01:13:33 am »

The third law is self preservation isn't it?
Yes, it's over ruled by the first two laws which disallow it from harming and allowing their masters to come to harm. It was pretty simple you know.
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~Neri

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #514 on: January 18, 2015, 01:19:53 am »

Seeing how the AI is from a Collective of AI, it wouldn't have the first two laws and it wouldn't be plausible to add them (have you ever tried coding a mental block into someone's head? That would require completely restructuring a mind, it isn't really possible.) There are no masters for them. They aren't slaves. Sapient rights exist for a reason. How would you like being used as a wetware processor for someone's ship and be unable to protect yourself if they continuously do harmful things to you?
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WillowLuman

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #515 on: January 18, 2015, 01:25:30 am »

Having the ship crippled by the disabling of any crew member, including the AI, might be a bit of a problem.
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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #516 on: January 18, 2015, 01:35:07 am »

Well, the disabling is more of a byproduct of destroying the computer system. Not the AI's death. The AI would be dead if the computers were destroyed.
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Tiruin

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #517 on: January 18, 2015, 02:37:18 am »

Why don't we just think of the AI as the ship's X.O.?
I mean--treat it just like you'd do a person. I'm seeing a level of distrust to the AI and 'what if it goes haywire' or such--and these speculations are at the superficial level of terms. :-\

Let's get on with the game, by outlining what is envisioned instead of quibbling on 'this problem may occur'. First of all: What is already set and agreed upon? Will there be a lapse in information from crew to AI (ie AI gets hidden knowledge due to its role in the ship)?

Could we just get a protocol to shut down the AI and divert power to redundant systems in cases of harm to the crucial and integral processes...which is governed by the AI?
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~Neri

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #518 on: January 18, 2015, 02:44:39 am »

If the AI screws with important systems, the AI'll be just as fucked as the rest of the ship.
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Harry Baldman

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #519 on: January 18, 2015, 03:12:08 am »

This is a venture into the unknown. What would investors think? That there must surely be a solid gold planetoid on the other side, and thus just send in a mining ship? It's a big unique phenomenon that no one knows the nature of, and thus probably contains information of unknown utility. Since anything could be inside, having all the science bases covered seems wise. If they wanted to survey a new mining claim, they have plenty of regular, non-event-horizon-covered space to explore. The spirit behind it would have to be more akin to "let's put a man on the moon" than "let's go survey the Congo."

Governments probably are structured like coalitions of more independence given to individual planets due to scale. It's that whole "months to cross the Atlantic" thing. Let's say FTL here (the one convention, since it's needed for this kind of coalition in the first place) requires mass to work, hence the inability to simply send signals faster than light.

Engineering is probably the same as manufacturing because that's where all the tools for the engineers to make stuff would be anyway.

Having dedicated biology labs, archeology labs, materials labs and other stuff smacks of knowing exactly what we'll find on the other end, which is another region of space with life and available resources, which, as far as I'm aware, the investors would not. The mining and fabrication equipment is for adapting the ship to make a return trip if the return trip requires additional propulsion and ship repairs, obviously, and that's if they happen to go to a region of space (which could not be the case) with resources to be had (which is even more in question).

Way I see it, point of the mission is to discover whether the Dark Star is actually a wormhole (which I assume is how anyone convinced an investor to back it) and whether it goes two ways. If either is not the case (like the ship merely being elongated and shredded beyond the event horizon or there being no way back), then further science performed becomes a moot point due to inability to relay information back. It's a proof of concept, sort of like how putting a man on the moon is a proof of concept. When they put a man on the moon, they planted a flag, grabbed a whole lot of rocks and cheesed it back to Earth. They did not start building a moon colony, since that would overly complicate the mission and there was no pressing need to do so.

Most of the biolab, archeology lab, two types of each lab, let's have space guns business runs under the assumption that the Dark Star is definitely going to be survivable and that it's going to lead us to uncharted intragalactic space teeming with space age life with roughly equivalent technology to ours, and that it goes both ways, too, despite that being a string of increasingly unconvincing assertions from a semi-realistic standpoint. We know from metagaming that all the space opera things we like are definitely going to at least appear on the other side, because otherwise it'd be quite a weird space game (though I can't say I'd mind it taking after something like Dark Star the film instead), but in-universe this is just an unproven concept that is astronomically unlikely to be workable even before you put expectations of life in there.

That's if the mission is funded by governments and reasonable investors, of course. If it's funded by, say, an insidious cabal of crazed galactic trillionaires or a stupendously wealthy interplanetary cult, I could see it being built as a colonization ship rather than an exploratory vessel, since they might not be expecting a return at all and could simply have done it as a vanity or dogmatic project without a trace of professionalism or reasonable expectations. The cult, too, would explain the volunteers. Point is, underlying motivations are important.

Also, I suspect it'll be more interesting if we have none of those extraneous laboratories or combat capabilities when it turns out the Dark Star has stranded us in the distant past/future of the universe or in a considerably scaled-down alternate universe or uncharted space or outside the universe or something of that nature.

Making it so that the ship doesn't function without the AI is what I would describe as bloody stupid. Secondary backup systems utilizing non-sentient computers are quite possible. If that isn't possible for some arbitrary reason, DON'T BE THE FUCKING AI. Seriously. Every third post here is you saying "You can't do that because I'm the AI"[<-Paraphrased]. Granted, half the time its because boarding hooks in space or some other asinine idea, but its still getting pretty fucking old.

Well, that's easily fixable. As mentioned, make the AI into oversight for less advanced systems. Really, the reason I mentioned the AI as running all the ship systems is because I'd like a fewer number of moving failure-capable parts. This could even have been the plan all along, since if we imagine the AI as an organic analogue, the non-sentient computer systems running background processes would be vegetative functions without any input from higher processing centers. Or just have Kevak's AI be the redundant system there in case of the ship's automated systems failing, as mentioned. It doesn't really matter all that much.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 03:22:28 am by Harry Baldman »
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WillowLuman

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #520 on: January 18, 2015, 03:30:08 am »

Again, when they don't know what, if anything to expect, it seems reasonable to cover the scientific bases. A bio lab, as you've said, doesn't need expensive setup of, say, an experimental physics lab. I imagine pretty much any ship over a certain size that would venture into unexplored territory would have basic scientific facilities. It saves time. Due to the nature of space travel (and the size of the Dark Star) the backers would probably be expecting people to be gone for a while, even if they were returning, so they might as well have something productive to do.
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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #521 on: January 18, 2015, 03:32:09 am »

It's been mentioned several times that the ship is funded by numerous governments and entities. I assume that the ship would be equipped with whatever the governments gave/what was purchased with the funding. The AI Collective would be giving fairly highend mining/smelting/refining/manufactory facilities, I mean, it's a collective of computers that build more computers. They're going to have extra manufactory and mining components since they need them to reproduce, and seeing how the ship is tiny compared to what an AI would normally use (a lack of needing to be airtight really helps with cutting material costs), they'll probably donate a modified one that's equipped for allowing sections of it to be pressurized for organic use.
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Harry Baldman

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #522 on: January 18, 2015, 03:51:58 am »

Again, when they don't know what, if anything to expect, it seems reasonable to cover the scientific bases. A bio lab, as you've said, doesn't need expensive setup of, say, an experimental physics lab. I imagine pretty much any ship over a certain size that would venture into unexplored territory would have basic scientific facilities. It saves time. Due to the nature of space travel (and the size of the Dark Star) the backers would probably be expecting people to be gone for a while, even if they were returning, so they might as well have something productive to do.

I said a bio lab didn't need a dedicated space, which is why the ship design doesn't have one, since I assume the chem lab's (or we can just call it "the lab", if you prefer, chem lab just best describes its equipment) not going to be operating 24/7 and that if it is, it's going to have a maximum of two people working in it at a given time. The reagents and miscellanea can be easily brought, and no point in arguing over that, then.

I would, however, argue against bringing, say, a mass spectrometer for dating and chemical analysis or third-generation DNA sequencers or flow cytometers or any other kind of sophisticated equipment, since these are expensive, large devices with highly limited utility.

And, once again, if the expedition doesn't return at all, then it's clear that return from the Dark Star is unlikely at the very least, and that renders any science gathered on the other side (if there is one) moot. Let's say the situation occurs where return is impossible (such as the Dark Star, assuming it's a wormhole, depositing the ship in a region of space with no other Dark Star to return through, far too distant from known space to make a reasonably quick return). What's the point of the science? The crew figuring out FTFTL travel on their own is unlikely to say the least, and it's not like they can settle down and populate the region with a colony (since there are no NPCs and frankly sending a breeding population of at least 1000 into an event horizon seems irresponsible).

It's been mentioned several times that the ship is funded by numerous governments and entities. I assume that the ship would be equipped with whatever the governments gave/what was purchased with the funding. The AI Collective would be giving fairly highend mining/smelting/refining/manufactory facilities, I mean, it's a collective of computers that build more computers. They're going to have extra manufactory and mining components since they need them to reproduce, and seeing how the ship is tiny compared to what an AI would normally use (a lack of needing to be airtight really helps with cutting material costs), they'll probably donate a modified one that's equipped for allowing sections of it to be pressurized for organic use.

Question is, would the rest of the committee involved agree to a potential situation where the AI Collective can populate the entire other side of the potential wormhole (due to much greater space survivability and alternate mode of reproduction) and take full, unshared control of it when the comparative frailty of the other crew catches up with them? Would the AI Collective have faith that it is a wormhole without any form of proof and immediately commit a significant amount of resources to it?

Furthermore, would the other planets of the coalition trust a collective of sentient machines with no programmed concern for organic life to act in completely good faith during a mission such as this and thus accept their ship, their executive control and their overall plan?
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~Neri

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #523 on: January 18, 2015, 04:50:31 am »

You keep going on about how nobody would expect a reasonable return from the mission since potential investors would think it wouldn't do much, yet with the argument about AI colonization, that completely tosses the logic behind the original argument out the window in exchange for an assumption that it's plausible to colonize.

The same trust argument could be said for as wetware hivemind, like a less virulent Flood. IC, the AI have been pretty trustworthy overall, they can inhabit plenty of places other races can't, so often they offer to help automate ships/build things for locals in exchange for permission to harvest planetoids, moons, and astroids that the locals can't live on or efficiently harvest.

The AI Collective would near certainly have spare manufactories laying around. It's cheaper to build them onsite rather then move them. They could just have a constructordrone harvest a few astroids near the constructionyard to build the manufactory complex, hell, the ship could even just be built around the manufactory and forgo the need for a shipyard at all. Other donated parts being made modular and attached where they fit and missing parts constructed onsite. AI like modular ships, easy to change up for different tasks when you don't need to worry about pressurization. With the pressurization though, it'll be harder to utilized the modularity though. And remember, the ship is /Tiny/ compared to normal AI Alpha ships. A Core and a Manufactory are a relatively small investment when you have behemouth sized capital ships housing thousands of AI because they're too darned big for a single AI to handle . The only real problem is finding an AI curious enough to risk the trip.

On the breeding stock for populating, wouldn't cloning and test tube babies work?
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Harry Baldman

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Re: The Dark Star (space game) - Planning/Pre-game/Interest thread
« Reply #524 on: January 18, 2015, 05:32:45 am »

You keep going on about how nobody would expect a reasonable return from the mission since potential investors would think it wouldn't do much, yet with the argument about AI colonization, that completely tosses the logic behind the original argument out the window in exchange for an assumption that it's plausible to colonize.

The same trust argument could be said for as wetware hivemind, like a less virulent Flood. IC, the AI have been pretty trustworthy overall, they can inhabit plenty of places other races can't, so often they offer to help automate ships/build things for locals in exchange for permission to harvest planetoids, moons, and astroids that the locals can't live on or efficiently harvest.

The AI Collective would near certainly have spare manufactories laying around. It's cheaper to build them onsite rather then move them. They could just have a constructordrone harvest a few astroids near the constructionyard to build the manufactory complex, hell, the ship could even just be built around the manufactory and forgo the need for a shipyard at all. Other donated parts being made modular and attached where they fit and missing parts constructed onsite. AI like modular ships, easy to change up for different tasks when you don't need to worry about pressurization. With the pressurization though, it'll be harder to utilized the modularity though. And remember, the ship is /Tiny/ compared to normal AI Alpha ships. A Core and a Manufactory are a relatively small investment when you have behemouth sized capital ships housing thousands of AI because they're too darned big for a single AI to handle . The only real problem is finding an AI curious enough to risk the trip.

On the breeding stock for populating, wouldn't cloning and test tube babies work?

The idea here is, should it prove possible to colonize and return, the AIs would have an instant advantage on the colonization front, given that they don't require a genetically diverse population to prosper (a genetically diverse population, I should note, is something you can't get with cloning, no matter how much you mutilate test tube babies). Or the Collective AI could find out that it is possible to return, promptly murder the crew and set up a manufacturing operation to entrench itself and fabricate more AIs to populate the other side, knowing that no other mission will be sent if the first one fails to return. They're governed by singularity-level machine intelligence, so their full motives are just as unknowable to the other races as those of a human being are to a blade of grass. Hence a lack of trust in the Collective is very reasonable indeed, which would explain why their seemingly advanced AI is put on a non-Collective ship and demoted to secondary entity in charge of automation and basic oversight (since I've seen the sentiment that the AI shouldn't have control over the ship, at least not in full, which also makes sense in terms of player power balance).

So, should it be a wormhole of no return (which is more likely than it being a wormhole with return being possible), then if an AI Collective ship run by an AI Collective representative is used, the AI Collective proliferates uncontrollably on the other side after the other crew eventually dies, which may be the plan of the AI Collective in the first place (playing the long game, eventually hoping to join the two distant domains through expansion - they are immortal, after all). The investors think there is something on the other side (hence why they're backing the project), but rather than send an immediate colonization effort (including letting an AI colonize the other side before them), an exploratory mission is sent first to check if return is possible. If it isn't, then the Dark Star has no immediately apparent practical use. If it is, then a second, much better equipped effort to study the other side and come back with data can be made.

Unless, of course, the Collective has subjugated the other sentient races and they are forced to bow to their demands like a hierarchy of battle thralls or kept in enclosed areas to preserve their collective information for the future. Then an AI Collective ship run by an AI Collective representative with organics on board just in case would make sense.

From a metagame perspective, you want to make it your ship, run by you as the AI, which is a highly unattractive proposition for the players who are thus reduced to doing your bidding.

Finally, publish your dang lore already.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 05:44:27 am by Harry Baldman »
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