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Author Topic: Horrified seeing a goblin die  (Read 13121 times)

utunnels

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2015, 06:58:31 pm »

My dorfs are getting used to death.
Recently I noticed most of them didn't feeling anything seeing goblins died.

So maybe burial jobs can train their tolerations. Every time a siege was broken, there were a few dozens of goblin corpses and parts.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 07:09:12 pm by utunnels »
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The troglodyte head shakes The Troglodyte around by the head, tearing apart the head's muscle!

Risen Asteshdakas, Ghostly Recruit has risen and is haunting the fortress!

Naryar

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2015, 07:15:04 pm »

the issue is dwarves getting horrified a thousand times due to seeing a goblin die (that's false, they are not seeing the goblin die they're seeing the dead goblin's corpse. Very diffierent)

I am FINE with dwarves being disturbed by participating in war and seeing goblins die (it's called post traumatic stress disorder).

What I am not fine with is dwarves getting horrified all the damn time due to merely seeing dead goblin corpses... They should be disturbed yes, maybe horrified if they have large empathy stats. And they should quickly get over it (unless they have large empathy stats). They are at war, and in-universe the goblins hate the dwarves's guts and vice versa.

But after the tenth goblin corpse the dwarves are still horrified. And again, and again. And then they get stressed. Bah.

wierd

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2015, 11:14:25 pm »

A better mechanic, imho, would be to do the following checks:

Did witness the death directly? <yes/no>
Creature dead same race? <Yes/No>
Creature dead same Civilization? <Yes/No>
Creature death violent? <Yes/No>
Observer related to dead creature? <Yes/No>

this way, when Urist sees a tooth from a dead goblin, he will note that he did not see the creature die directly-- He just knows that now it is dead. Further, he knows that it is not from his own race, and not from his own civilization, which should have a downward pressure modifier applied. He notes that the death was violent, which may upset him, and he notes that the dead creature is not related to him geneologically. (Not a family member or close association-- such as a spouse).

The total impact of "Mental trauma" from seeing the corpse can be more atomically rendered besides "OMG! DEATH!", like the game does now, if it was done this other way instead.

Another possible way this could be interesting, and play into more realistic portrayal of witnessing deaths--  Say the death is an animal, and not a sentient.  The reaction a dwarf should have to A) A butchered cow, and B) A cow torn apart by a flock of angry Rocs, should be VERY different.  By capturing a set of booleans about the observation, we can better shape the dwarfs reaction.  In these cases-- the dwarf sees the cow after the fact both times. (We'll say the first happens when he sees the brisket in the food stockpile, or hanging up in the butcher workshop-- and the latter, he leaves to go check on his animals, and finds "misc cow parts" out in the pasture.) He does not witness the death directly, only learns of the death by seeing the corpse/bodypart item.  In the former, he determines that it was part of his civ, but was not same race, and gets the downmod. He also says 'no' to all the other boolean questions. As such, he only gets a mild reaction to seeing the dead cow.  In the other circumstance, he says no to "Seen death directly", says yes to "Same civ", and says yes to "Result of violence".  The instinctual reaction is to have a pang of fear, because there was an act of violence performed against the civ, that resulted in death, even if that death was not of the same race. 

Similar to seeing the body of somebody who died of say-- drowning-- VS seeing a body of somebody who was tortured to death.

It should be pretty easy to implement some basic booleans to help graduate the baseline value that then gets modded against the modifiers for personality before reaching the final score.

I hope Toady improves his model with such improved granularity sometime in the next release, since it isnt like him to allow people to flip out over every little thing-- He DOES try to make reactions seem sensible.

If you want to introduce PTSD type reactions as well, another check of something like
Observer survived death cause in past <Yes/No>

and "Terrorism hysteria" with
Killer Infamous <Yes/No>


This latter check could be applied, even if the "killer" is not a living thing-- Say for instance, a disease type that is highly contagious.  Fear of the black death was nearly, it not more so, as deadly as the disease itself when it ravaged Europe.  Frightened refugees fleeing from plague stricken areas were prevented from getting food and shelter, and sometimes even straight up killed on the spot when they went to nearby settlements, for fears that they would bring the plague with them.  I could expect similar reactions to things like syndromes from forgotten beast secretions, or vampirism/werecreature syndromes.

Sadly--- this just is not how the game currently handles things.  Instead, Urist goes from "I feel nothing! I am an emotionless void!" to "OMG! PANIC! DEATH IN THE STREETS! OMG!" as soon as he sees Smugax's right lower eye tooth on the way to the dining hall.

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Thormgrim

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2015, 12:05:22 am »

I think everybody who thinks seeing corpses shouldn't bother dwarves should go spend 30 minutes on OGRISH.com or something similar and then come back and report.
I still remember being in basic training and seeing the pictures that some rangers had from the first gulf war.  I still remember those pictures.
And I was in basic training.  Training to be a soldier.

/edit I guess ogrish is gone now..
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EuphoriaToRegret

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2015, 02:20:51 am »

-snip-
Everything about that post earns a "yes" from me.

I hope a system of "Yes or No" would be added in the future. It seems fairly simple on the outside, but I'm sure plenty of other things go into it (e.g. Urist is a butcher and is used to seeing body parts, has a high empathy, and dislikes goblins. )

And I've also got to agree about the whole "Urist is now horrified about seeing a drowned corpse" vs the "Urist is now horrified after seeing a pulped goblin corpse (falling from high Z-level and slamming into the ground)." Two different deaths that would have two different reactions.

-snip-

Personally, I've never had a problem seeing organs or wounds, whether it be on the internet or IRL. However, there are certain wounds that make me retch just thinking about them:
Neck wounds and finger wounds.
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reality.auditor

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2015, 06:44:23 am »

I think everybody who thinks seeing corpses shouldn't bother dwarves
No one said that. Nice strawman.

should go spend 30 minutes on OGRISH.com or something similar and then come back and report.
You seem to not understand that reaction of modern citizen from highly developed country (that seen dead body last time when he seen aunt in coffin) to body of sentient killed in guresome combat may be a little different than reaction of peasant circa 1400. Or member of military circa 1400 for that matter.
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Thormgrim

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2015, 04:11:50 pm »

should go spend 30 minutes on OGRISH.com or something similar and then come back and report.
You seem to not understand that reaction of modern citizen from highly developed country (that seen dead body last time when he seen aunt in coffin) to body of sentient killed in guresome combat may be a little different than reaction of peasant circa 1400. Or member of military circa 1400 for that matter.
[/quote]

One shouldn't presume what another does or does not understand.

In any case, I have seen dwarves whose ages are well past 100 years with dabbling skill as a potash maker and nothing else (not even social skills) that migrate to my fortress.  It is hard to imagine what sort of isolation and environment leads to such uniquely unexperienced creatures, but it seems reasonable to conclude that the wealth of life experiences a medieval peasant might endure bears little similarity to the life experiences of most dwarves.

If they had more experience, more discipline, maybe done some butchery and their histories included exposure to previous deaths, it would be sensibly to conclude that they would be more used to it.  Generally speaking, our dwarves seem to live out their lives solitarily shuttling between a bedroom and a food stockpile until they migrate to the fortress.
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Skullsploder

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2015, 04:35:04 pm »

It makes sense for dwarves to be less used to death than  humans; specifically medieval human peasants. Let's look at dwarven society and living conditions:

Ability to seal themselves under mountains
Settle in often virtually unassailable locations
live underground, in a mostly crime-free society
minimal livestock, focussing more on farming
highly developed services from dwarven government
immigration can be easily controlled - thus disease can be easily kept out

All in all, it's safe to say the majority of dwarves live very insular, death-free lives. Also, the effect of the horrified by deaththought reduces with the amount of times they've had it, and is modified in severity by their personality already.

Furthermore, I have an aboveground fort with communal log cabins rather than proper rooms. I have a citizens' militia, meaning I throw the entire fort population at every threat. They all see every hostile death that's happened between this fort's three sieges (including 2 undead sieges) and numerous werebeast infestations. Yet, despite all this hardship, only three dwarves have ever become haggard in the fort's whole history, and they had the worst possible stress modifier in their personality -- so you guys must really be doing something wrong to be having such serious happiness issues. My only happiness factories are the 5 platinum and 4 gold statues placed around the fort.

Basically, dwarves react reasonably to horrifying stimuli like gore, according to their personalities; and it makes sense that they're not all little sociopaths if you think about standard dwarven society.
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Verjigorm

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2015, 05:22:39 pm »

Ah, yeah.   The time when people tell us that "it's no big deal" to see someone or something die, or a corpse, and it's no big deal.  Then they say that it's no good using real world examples, because we're obviously nothing like people were in the past, and we have such cushy lives that we're more vulnerable to this than dwarves seemingly would be.  Obviously, peasents back in the day were inured to this, because death was all around them, and they just accepted it.   

So, let's talk about ancient greece, then.   Why ancient greece, rather than some other time?   Well, Greek society was significantly less superstitious than some contemporaries(I'm looking at you Germania), very literate for the time, and also espoused widespread universal military service(those men too poor to be hoplites still served in some fashion), while maintaining a cult like appreciation of individual human will, strength and courage.   They frequently engaged in war with neighbors, widely traded, and are generally speaking, the origin for our western values of freedom and science.   

We have numerous playwrights and poets of Greece during the most violent period of it's history(the wars of the Leagues after the persian invasion, and the wars of successors to Alexander, and the Wars of his father, eclipse any wars greece had experienced previously), and we have poets who talk about defecating on themselves while in the ranks, about the horrible sounds of men dying.  We have the Greek Historian Polybius telling us that the Greek and Macedonian soldiers facing the romans were HORRIFIED to see the wounds inflicted on their dead by the romans swords.

Death is a terrifying thing, and violent, mauling death is more frightening still.   Even animals are weirded out by it, and have been known to undergo traumatic behaviors after experiencing the horrors of death.  There are dogs that refused to eat after their owners died and starved themselves to death.   Crows will avoid scenes of previous exposures to the death of other crows.   Elephants practice burial ceremonies for their dead, and some have been known to starve themselves or otherwise behave in a fashion similar to ptsd. 

Also, speakin' of PTSD.   It's not limited to soldiers, nor are most soldiers suffering from PTSD, and different people react in different ways.   But basically, anyone who undergoes a traumatic event may develop PTSD.   It's not a catch-all term for everyone, and it shouldn't be carelessly bandied about, because it's not a simple disorder(mental ones rarely are).   


Also, in american litarature, there's a book called The Jungle about what it was like being a butcher in an industrial setting, processing beef in Chicago, I think, back in the 19th century or early 20th.   Been a decade or more since I read anything about it.   But it's a great read if you want to look into how brutal and disensitizing the business of death is.   

Pictures from the American Civil war, to today, of war, horrify and appal people.    I have seen animals die gruesome deaths(sometimes at my hands*), and I've personally given chest compressions to a man after he was hit by my van, untill the firefighters got there and pronounced him dead.   Various parts of that encounter were disturbing, from the way I noticed his shoe had been knocked off some 30yds from where he was laying, that his right leg was bent at a terrible angle that wasn't possibly, his teeth were knocked back in his mouth, and blocking his airway(probably), his eyes were blue and there was no cognizance in them.   That was 8 years ago or so.  And I get a little nausous when watching documantaries of the holocaust, or video footage from ISIS.   Or that buddhist monk from vietnam burning up. 


*Technically foot.   I once accidentally steped on a kitten's neck, and it died, and blood squirted everywhere, and I still feel terrible when I think about it.   That's atleast 20+ years ago, and I still feel bad about it when I think about it.   
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SirFinbar

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2015, 05:31:45 pm »

This is making me chuckle!
Although it would be nice if people wouldn't reference garish corpse websites, keep that shit to yourselves thank you. (Thormgrim)

All in all, the system is quite borked, although I have yet to experience major problems with it. Someone suggested assigning a dedicated mortician dwarf to cleanup duty, which may I add, is far more realistic than the old:

'C'mon everyone, the siege is over! Let's all paddle around in this bloodsoaked, gore-strewn corridor!'
Then out comes little Udib, his sparse stubble already showing. Looks like he wants to play with the pulped goblin head en-route to the refuse pile!

To be honest I don't know what these dwarves are 'supposed' to be like. Traditionally they are hardier than humans, but at this point, it is largely up to the imagination.

Verjigorm's post is a very good and informed one. Death is horrifying. But then again, maybe not everyone is a big softie like me ;p
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Thormgrim

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2015, 06:29:23 pm »

Although it would be nice if people wouldn't reference garish corpse websites, keep that shit to yourselves thank you. (Thormgrim)

I guess I had assumed that folks could handle the name of a now defunct website without offending sensibilities.
It's better than a few years ago when some spambot or something was posting truly gruesome pictures in the forums from time to time.  Does anybody remember that?
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SirFinbar

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2015, 08:44:20 pm »

Although it would be nice if people wouldn't reference garish corpse websites, keep that shit to yourselves thank you. (Thormgrim)
I guess I had assumed that folks could handle the name of a now defunct website without offending sensibilities.

I guess I had assumed such references were for places like 4chan. Places for ghouls to gather! :)

I'm tired, don't mean to cause a fuss. It's just if you physically post a link like that, it increases the urge to just copy and paste to have a look. I'm not the kinda person who looks at super depraved shit on the web... Not my thing.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 08:58:28 pm by SirFinbar »
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Naryar

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2015, 06:57:30 am »

Clearly it means we must get our dwarves get used to tragedy. Do puppyfalls still work ?

Or it is mist generator time...

Burts

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2015, 12:29:34 pm »

People that say that this shouldn't happen just have no idea how actually horrifying it is seeing something die.
Of course, you can't explain this to them, because it's not possible to show them such things, because usually stuff like that is banned or removed very quickly from websites. And for a very good reason. We don't want humans throwing tantrums or getting horrified.


Of course such things do exist on the internet, and watching some of it can leave a permament scar on some people.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 12:31:42 pm by Burts »
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wierd

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2015, 12:41:06 pm »

I have seen many things die. I have even been instrumental in killing things. (farm kid + chickens and other poultry/animals == seen death. seen lots of death) I have also seen people die. (I was there as my grandmother died from complications of being over-dialized after she had renal failure, as EMTs tried to revive her. I was in the room when grandpa died of emphysemia. I have seen death, and in the cases of animals, everything from drowning, to evisceration.)

I dont like seeing things die, but I dont have a complete psych breakdown when they do.

dwarves live in a very hard world. By the time they reach adulthood, they should have become well aquainted with death, and only really violent, unnatural deaths should rattle them to the extent they are currently rattled.

Most people alive today do not directly have any experience with slaughtering animals or with high mortality rates, since most sources of such things are either abstracted away due to industrial scale processing or due to radically improved living conditions.

In the dark ages (real life), adult lifespan was not much past 30, and infant mortality rate was high.  Death from wild animals, disease, and farm accidents were very commonplace, and the regional lords did so love to fight each other using peasants as cannon fodder.

You cant allow yourself to look at this problem through a 1st world lens.  See enough death, it stops being as emotionally jarring. It never stops being completely jarring, but it stops being in the "OMG! NIGHTMARES!" category, and into the "that was really disturbing. I need a beer" category.
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