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Very good.

good.

meh.

bad.

Very bad.

[Putnam]

It's okay to remove building materials from elves, however build menus will be confusing with constructions that can be placed but never completed.

Vanilla buildings can be removed with the new DFhack.

Mostly posting to let you guys know that I'm still here and reading everything, even if I cant show any progress ^^

Vanilla buildings could be removed with the old DFHack...

[Zuzu Reish]

To amend my earlier statement, I think it would be great if the Elves could build aboveground without chopping down trees; it would create a distinction between them and other above-ground oriented races, which I think is great (and seems like a goal of the reborn MDF). I'm not well-acquainted with what is or isn't possible via DFHack; I can read raws, and that's about it  .

What I chiefly had in mind when I originally brought it up was placing walls/palisades so as to create a) walls/palisades and (to a lesser extent) b) indoor spaces for building beds. On most biomes, the seemingly (as I understand it) implacable trees would severely hinder this, and (paradoxically?) make heavily forested areas more difficult to play on. Even if the Elves could mount a sufficient defense without walls, their inability to 'control the terrain' would throw Megaprojects right out the window.

If, however, building on/over trees A) weren't an issue; and/or B) they had a supremely awesome ability to produce build mats, then this really wouldn't be an issue; like Loyal wrote earlier, they could in fact specialize in building upwards. Whether or not the vanilla/MDF Elves are peaceniks, I think we can all agree they're pretty silvan-oriented in nature (FUN intended); that puts them at odds with Dwarves, who specialize in building downwards.

[Meph]

The one thing I noticed about surface races is that you enter their late-game very quickly. There is no ore or gems to mine for, no caverns to discover, no hfs to defeat and no magma-forges to build. It gets boring fast, thats why kobolds can dig with shovels, humans can strip mine, and all other races can mine as usual.

Surface-only elves might be new, but not very pleasant to play. I want to offer good gameplay, not a boring one.

LotR elves life in caves sometimes, like the elves in the Mirkwood. I might take this into account. I'd prefer hanging rope-hamlets in tree tops, but as long as the deconstructing-tree bug exists, that wont happen.

[LMeire]

What if they used seasonal gathering of tree-products for their supernatural reactions? It could scale in power based on how exotic the tree is. Purely surface elves living in ordinary forests could use mundane products like apples and almonds to increase the overall health of the retreat and/or peacefully drive off invaders, while access to exotic locations filled with rare forests like Highwoods, Featherwoods, Glumprongs, and the cavern trees would inspire more "natural fanaticism" and grant more devious magics like sickness and madness to throw at invaders.

It'd certainly be a different way to play, being dependent on gathering for industry and mostly being rather helpless unless they settle on and master difficult terrain or dig down to access their higher-tier abilities would require a very open building plan that could leave them vulnerable to thieves and ambushes.

[Tirion]

Old MW had mithril for elves, has that changed? If not, where does it come from?

[Boltgun]

Remember that trees are extremely strong beings. Their roots pull concrete apart and  bend metal constructions easily.

We can implement 'mining' by having trees (or what we can simulate as one) to grow roots downwards. That would not yield boulders but that would allow reaching the caverns.

It is the occasion to implement a production and upgrade tree. Also, if we can implement events, we can also send custom invaders. Flying attackers will be much more enjoyable if the elves live in trees and produce bows.

[Meph]

I almost wanted to say something about roots digging into the caverns, but was sure that was too troublesome to write, considering that growing trees with dfhack seems to be very hard too.

Mithril would go away, but they'd keep light featherwood, irongrade ironbark and steelgrade steeloak. As wood, not metal. Then make them use wooden armor and weapons again, like vanilla elves. Just with a little bit better materials than alder and pine wood.

[lcy03406]

I almost wanted to say something about roots digging into the caverns, but was sure that was too troublesome to write, considering that growing trees with dfhack seems to be very hard too.

Mithril would go away, but they'd keep light featherwood, irongrade ironbark and steelgrade steeloak. As wood, not metal. Then make them use wooden armor and weapons again, like vanilla elves. Just with a little bit better materials than alder and pine wood.

Nooooo.. It's really a bad news for GNOMES. Gnomes can't make wooden armors, and can't cultivate steel from steeloak, and don't want to butcher animals for skin. But anyway we can buy mithril from elven caravans who cares those steelgrades. But now if mithril is removed, gnomes have only primitive steel production and very little chance of higher grade metals from dwarven caravans.

[Boltgun]

There will be less different metals so steel itself would be a step up.

[Meph]

Mithril will still exist. Dwarves make it. Elves dont.

[Billy Jack]

I wouldn't see the elves as truly being against the use of wood to use as building mats.  They just don't like to see other races inefficiently and recklessly cutting down trees.

Tree loving races that I've read about have either magically shaped the wood to their purposes, or continue to use wood as mats, but doing so as not disrupt the forest.

One thing that could be done is to use a multi-step process to increase the amount of material obtained from a single log.

• 1 log converted to 8 planks
• 1 plank converted to x better planks
• 1 better plank converted to y even better planks

And so on, until an acceptable balance is obtained.

Depending on the complexity of the capabilities of the GUI launcher, Supports could be changed to look like tree trunks.

After all, Elves show up in caravans with nothing but wood created items, so they just think they are more justified and make better use of wood than anyone else.

<edit> The skills that would be unused for elves such as blacksmith and metalcraft would be used as the skills for different levels of wood improvement, so that a single elf takes longer to become the super producer. Armor and Weaponsmith would still be needed to create the steeloak and such weapons and armor.

[vjmdhzgr]

I wouldn't see the elves as truly being against the use of wood to use as building mats.  They just don't like to see other races inefficiently and recklessly cutting down trees.

Tree loving races that I've read about have either magically shaped the wood to their purposes, or continue to use wood as mats, but doing so as not disrupt the forest.

One thing that could be done is to use a multi-step process to increase the amount of material obtained from a single log.

• 1 log converted to 8 planks
• 1 plank converted to x better planks
• 1 better plank converted to y even better planks

And so on, until an acceptable balance is obtained.

Depending on the complexity of the capabilities of the GUI launcher, Supports could be changed to look like tree trunks.

After all, Elves show up in caravans with nothing but wood created items, so they just think they are more justified and make better use of wood than anyone else.

<edit> The skills that would be unused for elves such as blacksmith and metalcraft would be used as the skills for different levels of wood improvement, so that a single elf takes longer to become the super producer. Armor and Weaponsmith would still be needed to create the steeloak and such weapons and armor.

To elves killing plants is worse than murder, but yes they do grow wooden items from trees. Wooden items imported from elves are called grown [tree name] wood, and in elven sites there are shaping trees where presumably the trees are shaped to make items they want. Based off of this maybe elves could have growing workshops that require being next to or on trees where they can make grown wood items.

[Weirdsound]

I wouldn't see the elves as truly being against the use of wood to use as building mats.  They just don't like to see other races inefficiently and recklessly cutting down trees.

Tree loving races that I've read about have either magically shaped the wood to their purposes, or continue to use wood as mats, but doing so as not disrupt the forest.

One thing that could be done is to use a multi-step process to increase the amount of material obtained from a single log.

• 1 log converted to 8 planks
• 1 plank converted to x better planks
• 1 better plank converted to y even better planks

And so on, until an acceptable balance is obtained.

Depending on the complexity of the capabilities of the GUI launcher, Supports could be changed to look like tree trunks.

After all, Elves show up in caravans with nothing but wood created items, so they just think they are more justified and make better use of wood than anyone else.

<edit> The skills that would be unused for elves such as blacksmith and metalcraft would be used as the skills for different levels of wood improvement, so that a single elf takes longer to become the super producer. Armor and Weaponsmith would still be needed to create the steeloak and such weapons and armor.

To elves killing plants is worse than murder, but yes they do grow wooden items from trees. Wooden items imported from elves are called grown [tree name] wood, and in elven sites there are shaping trees where presumably the trees are shaped to make items they want. Based off of this maybe elves could have growing workshops that require being next to or on trees where they can make grown wood items.

Would it be possible to use DFHack to change what growths a tree produces during Runtime? It would be cool if you could tell a tree to make you a buttload of arrows or something, wait for them to grow, and then be set for a long time because it makes so damn many.

[IndigoFenix]

It is possible for trees to grow items, but I don't think changing the species of an existing tree would be easy.  Worth a shot though.

If all else fails, growing item bushes on farms is certainly doable.

[Tirion]

That, or some modded item-fruit (like item-corpse, with fruit... is that possible?) that the elves can shape in a workshop.