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Good or bad idea?

Very good.
good.
meh.
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Author Topic: Masterwork Reborn - Discussion/Suggestions  (Read 53973 times)

Rydel

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Re: Masterwork Reborn - Discussion/Suggestions
« Reply #225 on: January 25, 2015, 10:59:18 pm »

Currently, building on trees has issues where sometimes the tree disappears, but hopefully that will be fixed before the Elves are ready anyway.

As for the whole "chopping down some trees for the greater good," that's kind of the elvish equivalent of "kill a few minorities for the greater good."

IndigoFenix

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Re: Masterwork Reborn - Discussion/Suggestions
« Reply #226 on: January 26, 2015, 01:31:39 am »

If elves can't build down, and can't build across... perhaps they can build up? Make their homes in the trees, make their homes look LIKE trees. They'll need something that gives them cheap/free buildmats, or perhaps someone can work some DFhacky magic to instagrow structures from reactions complete with stairs... but that is probably impossible.
That is possible. A building growing upwards is yet another reverted drilling rig. Gnomes drill holes everyday (technically they build something that looks like a hole).

First you build a "root"(drilling rig) with a block and a seed, and run a reaction "pray for a living wooden wall"(extend the drill) then a wall is dfhacked above the "root". The more you pray, the higher the wall will grow.

You've got the right idea, but hacking tiles is hard.  If you've looked at the drilling rig closely, you may notice that the drill tends to take on the color of the default layer's stone, but is not in fact made out of anything, and deconstructing a section of the drill turns it into dirt.

Making cheap buildmats is possible, if you can think of a way to explain it.  Would elves grow seeds into wooden blocks and then build houses with them?  Seems a bit off...

I think the best thing for now would be to give elves a different focus entirely: they simply don't build at all.  Similar to the ultra-hard self challenge of 'no digging, no building' forts, but with many abilities to make such gameplay viable.  As long as their workshops are small, the trees shouldn't get in the way - now that trees have roots, they are automatically prevented from growing too close together.  As for fighting enemies, I'm thinking magic.  Animals won't bother them anyway, sieges will probably take a while since the only way to increase your fort's value is through production, which is slow, and that gives you plenty of time to produce the means of driving off sieges through nontraditional methods: magically reducing their morale through fear, summoning torrential downpours that push them around, calling the beasts of the forests against them, growing treants...

On another note, I'm just working out the kinks of a script that combines soul manipulation with body construction, and it is very, very flexible.  Possibly of use for many existing races, definitely much better than the old 'butcher creatures to get their souls' method.

Transferring souls between creatures, storing multiple souls in a single body, constructing creatures from raw materials in reactions, constructing astral projection or demonic bodies from souls based on the soul's race and caste (that may or may not retain the original soul's loyalty and may or may not evaporate when the soul is removed), creating soulless creatures that can receive a soul later, and destroying souls to make items are all possible.  Splitting or combining (consuming) souls are the next step.  I think I'll forget about storing souls in items for now, the game doesn't really support it and most of the solutions I have tried are hacky at best or crashy at worst.  (But constructing a 'soul gem' creature from a gem that dies and reverts back to an item when the soul is removed is possible.  As are various other possibilities.)

Boltgun

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Re: Masterwork Reborn - Discussion/Suggestions
« Reply #227 on: January 26, 2015, 10:27:02 am »

It's okay to remove building materials from elves, however build menus will be confusing with constructions that can be placed but never completed. The best is to disable mining and wood cutting. They may build a couple of walls from bought materials but cannot produce some themselves.

Ideally, we could use dfhack to grow up/down stairways upward until it reaches a branch, then it would place flattened leaves for the elves to walk on. That would requires a lot of pathfiding. Similar workshops placed in trees would grow bridges to reach other branches.

Perhaps it could also grow downwards too to reach the caverns and magma without actual mining.
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Meph

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Re: Masterwork Reborn - Discussion/Suggestions
« Reply #228 on: January 26, 2015, 11:22:36 am »

It's okay to remove building materials from elves, however build menus will be confusing with constructions that can be placed but never completed.
Vanilla buildings can be removed with the new DFhack.

Mostly posting to let you guys know that I'm still here and reading everything, even if I cant show any progress ^^
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
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Nevets_

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Re: Masterwork Reborn - Discussion/Suggestions
« Reply #229 on: January 26, 2015, 11:33:11 am »

I think a big part of the challenge of elves would be having to build around/in-between trees.  You'd make your buildings wide platforms above the trees, built on stilts place in between them.  Trees could be modded to drop 'deadwood' in addition to nuts/fruits when harvested that could be turned into planks in the woodsinger's workshop.  Elven defenses should be weak but widespread, besides the obvious wild animal defenses we could have thorny bramble traps that can be spawned into existence all over the place that work like low damage slashing weapon trap that never jams.  Enough to weaken unarmored opponents but not kill them.  And if possible make tree branch/leaf/twig tiles work like floor grates so you can shoot through them.  This way with a few bridges you can connect most of the canopy of your forest into a ready made shooting gallery for your bowelf squads to use against invaders.
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Meph

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Re: Masterwork Reborn - Discussion/Suggestions
« Reply #230 on: January 26, 2015, 12:13:53 pm »

Elves are peace-loving hippies. (apart from tree-quota war, wood-trading haters and cannibals) so I dont think an open battlefield would be very elvish.

I'd love to make them a bit more pacificist (for players that like that sort of thing) and give them an AoE magic that either makes an entire siege fall asleep, turn them friendly, or cause them to leave/flee.

It would certainly be a new game mechanic. :D
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smakemupagus

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Re: Masterwork Reborn - Discussion/Suggestions
« Reply #231 on: January 26, 2015, 12:26:51 pm »

Elves are peace-loving hippies. (apart from tree-quota war, wood-trading haters and cannibals)

i dunno that they're very peaceful ... or are
ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL:ACCEPTABLE
ETHIC:TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE:ACCEPTABLE
not vanilla?

Meph

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Re: Masterwork Reborn - Discussion/Suggestions
« Reply #232 on: January 26, 2015, 12:33:19 pm »

Well.

Ehm.

Never mind then.
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smakemupagus

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Re: Masterwork Reborn - Discussion/Suggestions
« Reply #233 on: January 26, 2015, 12:44:37 pm »

But not torture for the rude purpose of gaining information -- that would be MISGUIDED.
Elves are strange.

Meph

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Re: Masterwork Reborn - Discussion/Suggestions
« Reply #234 on: January 26, 2015, 12:50:37 pm »

I was going of the bay12 lore of tree-loving hippies. ;) (and of course the chance to throw in some new game mechanic. Defeating seiges without combat or violence. Completely unheard of.)
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

IndigoFenix

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Re: Masterwork Reborn - Discussion/Suggestions
« Reply #235 on: January 26, 2015, 12:53:24 pm »

People get confused because elves = tree-huggers = hippies = peace loving.  But canonically DF elves have never been peace-loving at all.  They're more like snooty aristocrats with a little touch of The Fair Folk.

Fun fact: Goblins have the highest TOLERANCE of any vanilla DF race.  It's actually in the raws: [PERSONALITY:TOLERANT:50:75:100].  They may be cruel, immodest, angry, and violent, but they ain't racist.

Meph

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Re: Masterwork Reborn - Discussion/Suggestions
« Reply #236 on: January 26, 2015, 12:57:38 pm »

But do we want to be technically right (according to RAWs), or do we want to be right according to the people (following forum myths and concepts) ? Or both? ^^

That goblins are the nicest I read before. They steal children from dwarves to save them from the horrors that awaits them in the fortresses we run.
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Masterwork Reborn - Discussion/Suggestions
« Reply #237 on: January 26, 2015, 01:16:04 pm »

I'd prefer to start with canon and work out from there.  The new personality tags make it much more clear what a race is 'supposed' to be like.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It's mostly elvish ethics that makes them prone to starting wars.  Their personalities are fairly moderate, with some leaning toward art, vanity, and a degree of laziness.  They are also vengeful, though.
They seem to be the sort of folk who will sit around all day and ponder the beauty of the blooming of a flower, until someone comes and steps on it and then they fly into a rage and start killing people.

Also, forum jokes notwithstanding, I wouldn't call goblins nice by a longshot.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

They're pretty nasty.  But I guess they are as nasty to each other as they are to other races.  Or in other words, they aren't racist because they hate everyone equally.

Nevets_

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Re: Masterwork Reborn - Discussion/Suggestions
« Reply #238 on: January 26, 2015, 01:16:48 pm »

If the elves are willing to use violence to stop a faraway settlement from continuing to chop down it's own trees, they wouldn't blink at violently defending their own settlement against an invasion force whose goal is to kill them all, occupy their land, and then start chopping down their trees.  I think a better direction for a new mechanic for the elves would be some sort of stealth / confusion effect which would make invaders wander around the site 'searching' for the fort and breaking into smaller parties which could be ambushed individually.
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Meph

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Re: Masterwork Reborn - Discussion/Suggestions
« Reply #239 on: January 26, 2015, 01:29:01 pm »

Which is a good suggestion, but I think it might a bit difficult to be put into the game. ;)
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::
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