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Very good.

good.

meh.

bad.

Very bad.

[qorthos]

Elves seem like a more likely possibility with the way trees work now...

[Meph]

Dwarves should certainly be the gateway drug of MasterworkDF. Easy to get into, make you curious about the other modes.

Humans should be the next in progression, because they are so much based on RL humans that its easy to get a grasp on them. I made extra sure that they are easy to learn when I wrote them.

Then we can get into more complex stuff, after I got you hooked. All part of the plan.

Warlock magic vs dwarven magic is a massive difference though. You cant just copy paste it into them and expect it to work. ^^

[GhostDwemer]

First, I think that a rethink and recode for the new version is the best idea ever. Masterwork is amazing, and so much fun, but it would be more approachable if parts were simpler. Right now, there's a lot of cruft.

I've always wondered at the lack of elves in Masterwork. The nature based system of the gnomes would work well for elves. I feel that as it stands, the gnomes are mixing two very different types of gnome mythologies: the little pointy hat nature gnomes are not the same gnomes as techno-gnomes.

Perhaps elves could grow things, using a multi step process like pottery: grow, shape, dry. Growing things would take a long time but not require raw materials. Elven workshops could be called "groves" and require water underneath them (like steam engines) for irrigation.

Magic always seemed a bit incompatible with dwarven mythology, dwarves are known as anti-magical beings, certainly not as the best sorcerers in the world, which is usually elves or humans in most myths. Rune magic is definitely  appropriate for dwarves though, with a little earth and fire magic perhaps.

[qorthos]

Trees drop branches and fruit now, right?  Elves could collect the branches, weave them into strands and then make something things out of those strands in new workshops...

[Immortal-D]

Ok, on the subject of Dorfs;

I like the idea of the Ore Processor, but as has been mentioned; it is so easy to build that it simply becomes a unnecessary step.  If the raw changes are as great as you say, best to just nix it, or reserve for very specialized high-level stuff.

Guild Hall; I agree that Humans should get the most Guild stuff.  Rather than remove entirely from Dwarves, consider condensing and specializing.  Taken from this wonderful study on the nature of Dwarves;  Choose 2 Dwarves at a time for the Guild, a Master & Apprentice.  After a week, the Apprentice gains XP based on the Master's skill and Teaching ability, while the Master gains some XP in Teaching.  No unique Guildhalls and such, just a single building of learning.

Magic; Again, instead of removing entirely, make it more focused.  Dwarves get a single magic class/caste- the Priest of Armok (I'm fine with poking the third wall).  He would have access to the following schools; Fire (mostly offense, little defense), Earth (mostly defense, little offense), and Blood (little each of offense, defense, and healing).  Again, this can condense the magic feature into a single building, with relatively simple set of reactions to choose from.

I approve of the other changes you listed; keeping library & sciptorium, nixing more sciencey stuff.

[Meph]

Ok, on the subject of Dorfs;

I like the idea of the Ore Processor, but as has been mentioned; it is so easy to build that it simply becomes a unnecessary step.  If the raw changes are as great as you say, best to just nix it, or reserve for very specialized high-level stuff.

Guild Hall; I agree that Humans should get the most Guild stuff.  Rather than remove entirely from Dwarves, consider condensing and specializing.  Taken from this wonderful study on the nature of Dwarves;  Choose 2 Dwarves at a time for the Guild, a Master & Apprentice.  After a week, the Apprentice gains XP based on the Master's skill and Teaching ability, while the Master gains some XP in Teaching.  No unique Guildhalls and such, just a single building of learning.

Magic; Again, instead of removing entirely, make it more focused.  Dwarves get a single magic class/caste- the Priest of Armok (I'm fine with poking the third wall).  He would have access to the following schools; Fire (mostly offense, little defense), Earth (mostly defense, little offense), and Blood (little each of offense, defense, and healing).  Again, this can condense the magic feature into a single building, with relatively simple set of reactions to choose from.

I approve of the other changes you listed; keeping library & sciptorium, nixing more sciencey stuff.

I cant do that master/apprentice teaching stuff. Not with raw modding.

Magic, maybe they keep a rune-mage or so. Magma-based, so its late game.

[sayke]

i, for one, have always loved the complexity of dwarf mode =D it never felt like too much - it felt much more like an expansion pack! if there were features i didn't like i could turn them off or not use them.

i really do like having the trading system, though - i want to have access to cool stuff from other races!

what do you think about the old suggestion of having a "hill dwarf" civ that's basically accelerated-DF, and a "deep dwarf" civ that's got the kitchen sink in there? i forget who originally made that suggestion, but i liked it!

[LMeire]

I think dividing up the Dwarven magic system would work well; let them keep earth-magic and runes, but pass off the other elements to otherwise magicless races with warlocks being the only group that does everything. Succubi are already associated with fire, kobolds and air seem thematic (I'm imagining ninjalike 'bolds using stealth and disorientation spells), and water will probably make the most sense around the fishpeople/nagas. Humans could probably have the alchemy system with a little tweaking (since alchemy is the least magical of the MWDF magics, and humans are the least magical of the MWDF races), maybe as a slightly cheaper alternative to purchasing power if you happen to have a lot of "reagents" on site like brimstone, mercury, rare gems, magic plants, etc. Gnomes and elves would probably share "nature" magic with gnomes emphasizing friendship with animals and elves emphasizing friendship with plants. "Good", and "Evil" magic could probably work as a sort of commonwealth that everyone has access to- though for flavor the "crueler" races could be limited to only basic "good" magic, and the "civilized" limited to basic "evil" spells.

(EDIT: Forgot about succubi, *_*; ) Goblin magic can be a sort of "WarlocksLite" with minor spells for anything but lacking skill or power at everything but "evil" spells in which their "natural evilness" allows them to excel.

(EDIT2: Forgot the orcs too!) Orc magic seems like it would be primarily blood-focused, since everything they do is centered on the blood, skulls, scalps, and souls of their defeated foes with a variety of effects centered on killing more foes. In addition, AFAIK there's no way to train an orc to be a dreamwalker, it's something they're apparently born with.

[Immortal-D]

Right, gotta remember there are other Races, and they like to go 'pew pew' as well   That said, I approve of divvying up the magics like LMeire described.

[Meph]

Here:

Alpha V0.000001 - Download

Includes: All utilities, DF 40.23 (of course Toady updates right now to .24), dfhack, standardized wood, standardized leathers, and following mod-workshops: Bonecarver, Stonecrafter, Woodcrafter, Gemcutter, Wood Splitting Block, Weight Bench, Furniture Workshop, Tailor and new reaction in the Tanner.

Pure Ascii, no GUI, no manual, only dwarf mode.

Please download, test, and report as you like.

[chilller6]

i think all of the races in your masterwork races pic on the download page is fair game for races that should be kept or added

[Meph]

i think all of the races in your masterwork races pic on the download page is fair game for races that should be kept or added

All 20 of them? 

[heydude6]

This is a dumb question but why are you remaking the whole masterwork mod? Why not just only remake dwarf mode instead?

[Putnam]

Remaking the entire mod for 0.40.24 is easier than remaking just dwarves in general...

[qorthos]

Dang meph, you fast!