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[Urist Da Vinci]

...
What I have never found out though is whether it also scales with an individual creature, for instance does a tall, broad human have thicker armor than a short, thin human?

Tested. Nope, it is locked to the racial size (df.global.world.raws.creatures.all[unit.race].adultsize for you DFHack users) and body part relsizes. It doesn't scale with the random appearance modifiers for individuals.

[Putnam]

df.creature_raw.find(unit.race) is probably better than df.global.world.raws.creatures.all[unit.race]

[Urist Tilaturist]

Has there been any progress on getting the right balance of raws edits to improve unarmed combat? If you could post some I could test them.

[Sergarr]

I can post the changes I made for that.

[DEFAULT_RELSIZE:20] for skull in body_default.txt (from 200)

[SOLID_DENSITY:200] for bones (from 500) in material_template_default.txt

And [BP_LAYERS:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:ARG1:1] for VERTEBRATE_TISSUE_LAYERS in b_detail_plan_default.txt to make head non-muscular.


This makes unskilled humans very ineffective at killing each other, while skilled humans still kill each other pretty fast in unarmed combat.

FAKE EDIT: Somehow a human just managed to scratch through an iron mail shirt, shattering the ribs. Wtf

Also, I recommend lowering the pain receptors. It's mind boggling how overpowered pain is in the current version in the game. 95% fights are decided by who gives in to pain first.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Iron mail shirts have poor blunt impact resistance, so a punch breaking ribs through one is not outrageous, especially with a gauntlet, though the puncher should have to be a somewhat skilled fighter to do it. A scratch...something is wrong there.

What I really meant was making all the required raws changes, including pain receptors and so on, then posting the raw files so people can download them.

Would it be possible to make gauntlets and boots increase punching and kicking damage respectively?

[Sergarr]

Would it be possible to make gauntlets and boots increase punching and kicking damage respectively?

As far as I know, no.

[Urist Tilaturist]

I know that the eventual DF plan is to move more and more things into the raws for modders to use, but the sooner that comes, the better.

Before the raws changes go up for release, it would be good to get things like numbers of pain receptors, fatigue levels and the ability to break ribs through armour right.

Going back to armour, an end to armour stacking would be good, as would the addition of proper leather armour as seen in the mod linked earlier. Where that mod is lacking is in unarmed combat, as playtesting showed.

[Grimlocke]

I know that the eventual DF plan is to move more and more things into the raws for modders to use, but the sooner that comes, the better.

Before the raws changes go up for release, it would be good to get things like numbers of pain receptors, fatigue levels and the ability to break ribs through armour right.

Going back to armour, an end to armour stacking would be good, as would the addition of proper leather armour as seen in the mod linked earlier. Where that mod is lacking is in unarmed combat, as playtesting showed.

Ah yes unarmed combat. I have so far left it untouched as adjusting it fairly easily sprawls into lots and lots of different raw files.

The current version of my mod seems to have taken out the ridiculous one-hit punch kill through a helmet, but biting, scratching and AI priorities are still weird. For some reason the bite attacks 'attach' even if there is only a bruise through the armor, and the subsequent shake attacks completely ignore armor. Leading to ridiculous things like being able to take down an armoured enemy by biting him in the foot. While standing.

I should be fairly simple to keep unarmed attacks from being effective where they should not, either by nerfing the material or adjusting the bodypart. In theory you can adjust the attacks themselves, but I really don't fancy adjusting each and every creature entry.   AI priorities however are well out modding reach as far as I know.

The scratch attack somehow phasing through mail is also an issue with the mail not being worn with effective padding. Breaking ribs through mail and padding should only be a good way to break your own fingers.

I have gotten the padded and leather armor working properly now, with only a number of material template changes being needed which is think is a worthwhile sacrifice (I try to keep the mod as compatible as possible). More info in the combat mechanics thread: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=142372.msg5937839#msg5937839

It will be released along with a few other changes on my mod page, but for anyone who wants to use it this is pretty much all you need to do:

Spoiler: In material template raws, modify the entries of wool, plant thread, silk and leather with the following: (click to show/hide)

   [IMPACT_YIELD:1]
   [IMPACT_FRACTURE:100000000]
   [IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:37500]
...
   [SHEAR_YIELD:10000]
   [SHEAR_FRACTURE:10000]

Spoiler: then add this set of padded armours: (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_HELM:ITEM_HELM_COIF_PADDED]
   [NAME:padded coif:padded coifs]
   [ARMORLEVEL:1]
   [LAYER:UNDER]
   [COVERAGE:1750]
   [LAYER_SIZE:4]
   [LAYER_PERMIT:0]
   [MATERIAL_SIZE:5]
   [SOFT]
   [STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_METAL]  Annoyingly, its possible to make adamantine padded armors. This is to at least limit the sillyness.
   
[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_GAMBESON]
   [NAME:gambeson:gambesons]
   [ARMORLEVEL:1]
   [UBSTEP:MAX]
   [LBSTEP:MAX]
   [LAYER:ARMOR]
   [COVERAGE:328]
   [LAYER_SIZE:16]
   [LAYER_PERMIT:2]
   [MATERIAL_SIZE:12]
   [SOFT]
   [STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_METAL]
   
[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_AKETON]
   [NAME:aketon:aketons]
   [UBSTEP:MAX]
   [LBSTEP:MAX]
   [LAYER:OVER]
   [COVERAGE:875]
   [LAYER_SIZE:4]
   [LAYER_PERMIT:2]
   [MATERIAL_SIZE:8]
   [SOFT]
   [STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_METAL]

[ITEM_GLOVES:ITEM_GLOVES_MITTENS_PADDED]
   [NAME:padded mitten:padded mittens]
   [ARMORLEVEL:1]
   [UPSTEP:0]
   [LAYER:ARMOR]
   [COVERAGE:2292]
   [LAYER_SIZE:12]
   [LAYER_PERMIT:8]
   [MATERIAL_SIZE:6]
   [SOFT]
   [STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_METAL]

[ITEM_SHOES:ITEM_SHOES_BOOTS_PADDED]
   [NAME:padded boot:padded boots]
   [ARMORLEVEL:1]
   [UPSTEP:0]
   [LAYER:ARMOR]
   [COVERAGE:2292]
   [LAYER_SIZE:12]
   [LAYER_PERMIT:6]
   [MATERIAL_SIZE:6]
   [SOFT]
   [STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_METAL]

[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_LEATHER]
   [NAME:cuir bouilli armor:cuir bouilli armor]
   [PREPLURAL:suits of]
   [ARMORLEVEL:2]
   [UBSTEP:0]
   [LBSTEP:1]
   [LAYER:OVER]
   [SHAPED]
   [COVERAGE:500]
   [LAYER_SIZE:14]
   [LAYER_PERMIT:15]
   [MATERIAL_SIZE:9]
   [LEATHER]
   [HARD]

All of these take 25% off of a blunt hit's force now. 0 impact strain would take off 100%, 49999 takes off no force, 50000 makes it automatically pass through blunt force like chainmail does.

Increasing the impact yield should also give it an arbitrary momentum cost, but I haven't quite gotten to experimenting with that yet. Might be appropriate for the cuir bouille (boiled leather) armor, which in reality had a consistency somewhat like hard plastic.

EDIT: I'm expecting a 'no', but does anyone know of a way to get helmets to protect facial features? Things like something kicking my fully armoured warrior and the nose and the part exploding in gore is pretty high on my annoying things list.

Nother EDIT: Whoops, I both midsspelled the cuir bouilli armor and balanced it wrong. Fixed now.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Thank you, Grimlocke.

Scratching somebody and breaking ribs is daft to start with, but the biggest problem for me is biting and the ridiculous consequences of it. Any way to restrict biting to soft targets like the throat or ear would be well appreciated.

It is not unreasonable for a helmet to have an open face, since fighters must see and breathe, but having at least nose and ear guards on some helmets would be welcome, if it is even possible.

[Sergarr]

A robe will protect all those extended bodyparts, because of [UBSTEP:MAX][LBSTEP:MAX] tokens.

You may want to test those tokens on the helms and gauntlets.

(annoyingly enough robes won't protect the body parts with [GRASP], [STANCE] and [THOUGHT] tokens)



(also I'd like to ask how did you balance all those armors, since the COVERAGE values appear to be distributed along a pretty wide range)

[Grimlocke]

I sadly cannot regulate which helmets cover what parts of the face. Oh if only I could...

And yes, you can cover facial features with body garments, the padded armours I posted do this. Sadly cloth armour alone does not protect all that much. It also sounds really weird in the combat announcement.

I tried the stepping tokens on helmets, no dice. It just gives an error. Gauntlets all stop at the upper body.

The only thing I can think of is somehow layering the facial features over the head the same way skulls are, though I'm not sure if that would make the head untargetable.

[Sergarr]

You can just make them all [INTERNAL] and thus untargetable...

though at this point it would be really better to just leave them out, since the game engine is clearly not up to task of correctly modeling these small body parts.

they get pulped way too easily by incoming attacks, because they absorb 100% of the incoming attack, while IRL they absorb much, much less.

[Grimlocke]

Well, I imagine a mace to the nose would leave your nose in a bit of a mess...

But yeah punching someone in the nose should not make it explode in gore. And hitting someone in the nose with a mace should probably also break his skull and kill them.

Of course DF has the fundamental problem of the game modelling hits as though the receiving party is strapped to a pole and completely unable to yield with a blow. This seems to be a universal problem of someone trying to simulate melee combat, practically every self-proclaimed historic research TV show has that ridiculous thing where they strap a piece of armour, meat or a weapon to a pole and hit it as hard as they can.

Making them internal should work, but I can't deny that lopping the nose of an unarmoured enemy is kinda funny, so its kind of a last solution for me.

[Urist Da Vinci]

Unarmed combat:
- Pinching, bending, and shaking all ignore clothing and armor; instead, damage is directly applied to a single body part
- Internal contained body parts are ignored, so pinching and shaking can't damage the liver, ribs, or brain for examples
- Joint bending actually targets the joint part (made of just muscle and bone) and the container limb that you grabbed doesn't matter.
- Damage is applied to soft flexible tissues. You can't punch someone's leg off (due to the blunt impact bypass of the skin/fat/muscle), but you can pinch their leg off.
- Pinching uses COMPRESSIVE properties. It can damage hair strands and feathers, which are normally ignored by other attacks.
- Joint locks use BENDING properties.
- Shaking uses TENSILE properties if edged (teeth) or TORSION properties if blunt (tentacle wrap). If you remove [ATTACK_FLAG_EDGE] from Giant Desert Scorpion pincers, for example, they will deal TORSION damage instead of TENSILE damage when shaking a latched victim. This also makes the pincers into blunt weapons. I don't know of any vanilla creatures that do this, but someone must have a latching tentacle monster somewhere.
- Wrestling moves are very dependant on size, and less so on strength, skill, etc.   My script calculates the wrestle/charge rating as: strength/100+size/100 i.e. human 7000/100+1000/100 = 70+10=80

Scratching through mail:
- The mail negated the scratch's edged attack, but allowed through the blunt damage

Code: [Select]

[DFHack]# combat
Creature size (base/current/racial):    6720    7004    7000
Creature strength (base/current):       1000    1000
Wrestle/Charge rating:  80

ITEMS

iron    mail shirt
Full contact blunt momentum resist:     307
Contact 10 blunt momentum resist:       10
Unbroken momentum deduction (full,10):  30      1
Volume/contact area/penetration:        283
Weight:         22.2155
shear yield/fracture:   155000  310000

BODY PART ATTACKS
NAME    EDGE    SIZE    CONTACT PNTRT   WEIGHT  VEL     MOMENTUM(+500%/-50%)
PUNCH   blunt   101     21      101     0.505   100     51      bone
PUNCH   blunt   101     21      101     0.505   100     51      bone
KICK    blunt   151     28      151     0.755   100     76      bone
KICK    blunt   151     28      151     0.755   100     76      bone
SCRATCH edged   30      9       30      0.15    100     16      nail
                shear yield/fracture:   115000  130000
SCRATCH edged   30      9       30      0.15    100     16      nail
                shear yield/fracture:   115000  130000
BITE    edged   7       3       7       0.035   100     4       tooth
                shear yield/fracture:   115000  130000
Mail shirt has 9 blunt momentum resist at the nail's contact 9. The nail attack has 16 momentum, therefore the blunt damage passes through. This only bruised the fat in my test though.

You could mod scratch attacks to be slower (ATTACK_VELOCITY_MODIFIER less than 1000), nails to be lighter. Use ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC greater than 100 on the scratch attack to increase the contact area, causing the momentum to be distributed over a wider area and not bypass its way through the mail.

[Urist Tilaturist]

A scratch should not have much blunt impact at all.

A strong mace hit to the nose should not necessarily kill, since the strike angle may miss the brain, but create a hole in the face where the nose was, causing severe bleeding, disfigurement and possible loss of teeth. A punch can break a nose, and I would not say exploding into gore was unreasonable for a legendary fighter to inflict.

The more I play DF, the more I find how badly optimised and even designed combat is. There is no point modelling every ear and nose if even the base mechanics are not right - no deflecting or yielding to blows to reduce their impact, for example.