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[IndigoFenix]

Too bad there isn't a proper adrenaline system,  then.  If I break my toe bone walking down the stairs I may fall over in pain, but I doubt that would happen if I was being attacked by wolves.
The enraged or combat trance effects nullify pain,  but this should work on a gradual spectrum rather than a gamey power-up effect.

[Urist Tilaturist]

DF pain disabling fighters all the time is not how reality works, especially if adrenaline is implemented properly. I talked to a veteran of the Afghan war who was riding in an armoured vehicle that was hit by a bomb. The blast and shrapnel broke several vertebrae, fortunately missing the spinal cord, but he was still able to crawl to safety. Only once he was rescued did he pass out from the shock.

That woman on Reddit who was attacked by a bear experienced extreme pain, but nowhere did she say that she passed out in the middle of the fight. She only came close to passing out once she was safely inside the rescue helicopter.

See this video here for historical examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF_K-P0AwfI

And read this here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Benavidez

This case is especially interesting, since he was briefly knocked out by a grenade, but then proceeded to come to and continue fighting for some time. He sustained a broken jaw, among 37 assorted bullet, bayonet, and shrapnel wounds, but still was the last man on the helicopter out and only then fainted from his injuries.

I can promise you that most fights are not settled by somebody passing out from a chipped bone. The solution is not to remove pain but instead to add adrenaline that works properly, staying for the duration of the fight and then ebbing away after it is over, leaving the fighter to suffer the pain of his injuries. "Collapsing from over-exertion" also needs to happen less often, and fighters should just not hit as hard as they tire; now it happens several times during some fights, with the fighter then getting up again, fighting some more, and collapsing again. It is daft.

Regarding giant cave spider silk, it must be followed through to its logical conclusion, however unbalancing that might be. Just making it far less abundant and more dangerous to get would balance it out; those traders should not get it so easily.

[Sergarr]

Yeah, right now it feels like people tire out way too quickly, even compared to the previous versions of the game.

It doesn't help that 90% of the wrestling moves they do in combat is absolutely useless.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Good point, Sergarr. All too often have I seen a grab with the right hand on the third finger, left hand which is then released and achieves nothing at all. I would like for wrestling skill to lead to more sensible holds and grabs, but this is out of the reach of modders. DF wrestling has the chance to be a great system, but now suffers, especially in the AI department.

[Sergarr]

What surprises me the most is that it was incredibly effective in 40d version, to the point where a wrestling military was a valid option.

Then .31 came, and Toady has "improved" the wrestling system by adding a bunch of wrestling moves and also completely breaking the wrestling AI in the process.

[scamtank]

Good point, Sergarr. All too often have I seen a grab with the right hand on the third finger, left hand which is then released and achieves nothing at all. I would like for wrestling skill to lead to more sensible holds and grabs, but this is out of the reach of modders. DF wrestling has the chance to be a great system, but now suffers, especially in the AI department.

We can't alter the AI, but we can coax and goad it like a mule. Making all of the fingers and toes into internal bones instead is already a big help. The same thing can be done with facial features. Then the only real problem is that wrestlers still have only a 1/3 chance to use their hands instead of just wrapping people's necks around their armpits and elbows.

[Sergarr]

Good point, Sergarr. All too often have I seen a grab with the right hand on the third finger, left hand which is then released and achieves nothing at all. I would like for wrestling skill to lead to more sensible holds and grabs, but this is out of the reach of modders. DF wrestling has the chance to be a great system, but now suffers, especially in the AI department.

We can't alter the AI, but we can coax and goad it like a mule. Making all of the fingers and toes into internal bones instead is already a big help. The same thing can be done with facial features. Then the only real problem is that wrestlers still have only a 1/3 chance to use their hands instead of just wrapping people's necks around their armpits and elbows.

What if we combine all elements of the arm into a single "arm" body part? Same with legs.

If the game is clearly not modeling them correctly, then why not simply abstract them away?

[Urist Tilaturist]

We can't alter the AI, but we can coax and goad it like a mule. Making all of the fingers and toes into internal bones instead is already a big help. The same thing can be done with facial features. Then the only real problem is that wrestlers still have only a 1/3 chance to use their hands instead of just wrapping people's necks around their armpits and elbows.

I am not quite sure what you mean here; a correct way to do an arm choke is to wrap the elbow around the neck. A leg choke can be done by doing so with the knee. I would like to see the end of impossible holds like "grabbing the upper right back tooth with the upper left leg", if that is what you mean.

Removing the knees, elbows, hands and feet may be going a little far, but making small body parts like fingers and noses internal and therefore untargetable may be a stopgap fix until something better is possible.

[Sergarr]

I am not quite sure what you mean here

it may be a thing you can do IRL, but it's not a thing you can do IDF

[Deon]

Thanks so much for this mod, I've tested this out and I really like what you did.
I am basing all weapons in The Fall mod on your tweaks now, I will make sure to give you a credit.

[Sergarr]

Thanks so much for this mod, I've tested this out and I really like what you did.
I am basing all weapons in The Fall mod on your tweaks now, I will make sure to give you a credit.

Hey, while you're at it, go check this mod for alternate take on weapon rebalance + armor rebalance.

[Putnam]

Then .31 came, and Toady has "improved" the wrestling system by adding a bunch of wrestling moves and also completely breaking the wrestling AI in the process.

"Improved" doesn't always mean "buffed", nor should it really be that wrestling is as effective as weapon usage for creatures that aren't saiyans or whatever. The combat system is not complete at the moment, and it's one of those "don't want to improve incomplete systems" situations.

[Grimlocke]

Thanks so much for this mod, I've tested this out and I really like what you did.
I am basing all weapons in The Fall mod on your tweaks now, I will make sure to give you a credit.

Hey, while you're at it, go check this mod for alternate take on weapon rebalance + armor rebalance.

Cheers for the reference!

As for the whole AI priority/wrestling thing, removing all the largely superfluous detail bodyparts, or embedding them in their parent bodypart, doesn't sound that bad. It would come at the cost of being able to cut someone's nose off and laugh at them but it does solve a whole slew of problems.

If you don't like arm wrestle grabs you can simply bump the [LIMB] tag from the bodypart in question. The wiki states that tag also influences armour behaviour, but that does not seem to be the case. I don't think they are really the cause of the problem here though.

EDIT: I don't suppose it's possible through DFhack to add a syndrome to all creatures starting combat and remove it as combat ends? That could handily solve the pain system problem.

[Deon]

You could have an "adrenaline rush" interaction targeting yourself when you attack (USAGE_HINT:ATTACK) which increases willpower and then has some period of doing nothing (when you cannot re-apply it, so you can't stack it and have some "hangover") with normal DF modding just fine.

[Putnam]

self-targeted attack interactions still don't work...