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[Retropunch]

As far as I know, Hello Games was allowed to keep total creative control.
Sony doesn't own them & doesn't really bother them much at all. (unlike Spore, Maxis, EA)

Not to sound conspiratorial, but they pretty much always say that. I mean, they know that people wouldn't be happy if they said 'oh yeah we came in and changed a load of stuff and toned it down to make it commercially viable'.

Probably it was more...nudges...instead of taking control. So they say 'well you haven't developed for the ps4 before, and the important thing is x - you should definitely include that' and they'll obviously take that on board.

Again, it's not that I think this is necessarily the case, it's just that it's a definite possibility.

[GrayFox]

As far as I know, Hello Games was allowed to keep total creative control.
Sony doesn't own them & doesn't really bother them much at all. (unlike Spore, Maxis, EA)

Not to sound conspiratorial, but they pretty much always say that. I mean, they know that people wouldn't be happy if they said 'oh yeah we came in and changed a load of stuff and toned it down to make it commercially viable'.

Probably it was more...nudges...instead of taking control. So they say 'well you haven't developed for the ps4 before, and the important thing is x - you should definitely include that' and they'll obviously take that on board.

Again, it's not that I think this is necessarily the case, it's just that it's a definite possibility.

I don't think it's true, but yeah, I guess it's possible. I think they mainly would push them on technical aspects though, like "make sure it runs at/near 60fps" and stuff like that. Although they may have suggested the "get to the center" goal, I don't know.

[Teneb]

I don't think it's true, but yeah, I guess it's possible. I think they mainly would push them on technical aspects though, like "make sure it runs at/near 60fps 30fps" and stuff like that.

FTFY

[GrayFox]

I don't think it's true, but yeah, I guess it's possible. I think they mainly would push them on technical aspects though, like "make sure it runs at/near 60fps 30fps" and stuff like that.

FTFY

yeah, maybe on PS4... I don't know. I'm getting it for PC anyway, although I've never cared all that much about framerate. but my point is they'd mostly push for a smoothly running game, rather than screwing with HG's gameplay ideas.

[Beggars` Sect]

Ever heard of opinions?

Have you? Asking because you`re trying to chide somebody for posting an opinion. Also,  that "strawman" shtick is pretty 2010...if you feel like you really can`t resist and use this mostly meaningless cliche, please back it up at with some examples. I will also immediately concede to your point if you can tell me - being 100% honest - that you never use generalization in a discussion. From my experience it`s what about 99.7% people do, but if you`re that 0,3% then kudos to you sir.

My "opinion" is based partially on the fact that already in this thread there were two people stating they do not like DF. While this is absolutely fine in general (I actually appreciate you being honest, Vector), does it not strike you as slightly surreal - in the context of the place (Dwarf Fortress forums) and the subject (procedurally generated game)?

And then we have gems like these:

"Similarly, procedural generation has been a staple of many games in the past what, six, eight years? We've all seen how it works in games, and Vector's right- it's predictable."

I mean...I don`t know what to say. It`s just probably that for some reason I joined this forum thinking it is full of roguelike players and people who, you know, appreciate this kind of stuff. Well, at least a majority. You see, I`m not a fan of rhythm action games but you won`t find me on Harmonix forums arguing that new Saxophone Hero is bound to suck, because you have to tap buttons rhythmically (or whatever you do there).

I asked for some examples of procgen games that suck, you guys came up with two: some Bloodborne levels and Starbound. Lets ignore that first comedy one, and the second is actually pretty good. However, it`s 1 (one) example. Bit thin on the ground here, no?

For the first time in aeons we have a chance of a truly original, big AAA/indie release, based on sacred Elite model, with procedural galaxy, fuckton of bells & whistles on top and  an enormous potential. It`s quite possible it will sink like Led Zep but for once I choose to be positive - an old cynic who`ve seen it all. And guess what? The cool kids* decided that it shouldn`t be the course and baseless naysaying is the order of the day.

*sweeping generalization 

And yeah, I will still insist it`s a joke compared to other threads in this section. In fact, isn`t it hilarious that Chiefwaffles here just chided somebody for being negative in the Starbound thread - a procgen failure, released years ago - but I`m not allowed to cheer on a game which hasn`t even been released yet? Double standards much buddy?

[Shadowlord]

It's pretty easy to find something "procedurally generated" in a game, find an example of a procedurally generated game that we either like or don't like, and then decide that that means that we will or won't like the game because it also is "procedurally generated." It doesn't necessarily seem like a useful comparison, though - even if you're comparing on a feature by feature basis.

Just one example: I didn't dislike diablo and diablo 2's randomly generated levels, but I did dislike them (a lot) in Daggerfall. (I didn't particularly like diablo 2, but that was for other reasons, mainly the interface and gameplay being awful compared to Nox - and iirc blizzard only won that war because Nox didn't have randomly generated levels, and because EA bought Westwood and cancelled Nox 2)

[Greenbane]

There's a thousand mediocre Minecraft wannabe clones on Steam, for one. Just saying. Procedural generation has been booming for the past few years.

Also, Beggars Sect, just FYI and this is a bit off-topic, the French tilde (`) isn't the apostrophe (').

[Chiefwaffles]

Sorry what, Beggars?
"you`re trying to chide somebody for posting an opinion."
Have you, uh, have you read the post I was referring to? You know, the one that you made?

[Aklyon]

So is this this out yet, or are we just going to continue argueplaining about proc gen until the procgenned cows come home?

[Vector]

Does it not strike you as slightly surreal - in the context of the place (Dwarf Fortress forums) and the subject (procedurally generated game)?

I'm here talking about it because I've worked as a game developer, and the place of procedural generation is a subject which I find very interesting. I haven't found many games in which I enjoyed it at all. I'm not nay-saying, I'm interested in finding out the contexts in which it works better than others, and expressing my point of view as someone observing one of the biggest trends in game development right now.

Still surreal?

It`s just probably that for some reason I joined this forum thinking it is full of roguelike players and people who, you know, appreciate this kind of stuff. Well, at least a majority. You see, I`m not a fan of rhythm action games but you won`t find me on Harmonix forums arguing that new Saxophone Hero is bound to suck, because you have to tap buttons rhythmically (or whatever you do there).

The equivalent here is something like saying "I don't think that tapping buttons is skeumorphic enough for the desired player experience, and continually adding more buttons doesn't fix the underlying problem. We should use a dancepad instead and focus on creating new dance moves, or change the technology to create more feedback than button-tapping."

I don't think that the problems I'm bringing up are intrinsic to procedural generation. I'm trying to say that the big selling point of this game (just look at the thread title) is that it's BIG. BIGGER THAN EVER BEFORE. I'm not sure that that's a good thing. I *especially* don't think that that's necessarily a good thing in the context of procedurally generated games, and I'm putting my hat in the ring not to speak about this particular game, but rather to talk about a. big games and b. procedural generation, because this particular game has become the mascot of both right now.

I asked for some examples of procgen games that suck, you guys came up with two: some Bloodborne levels and Starbound. Lets ignore that first comedy one, and the second is actually pretty good. However, it`s 1 (one) example. Bit thin on the ground here, no?

You asked for one example of an unexciting procedurally generated game. I furnished it, along with many other procedurally generated parts of games that I didn't like (oh, and I should add--that my ex-girlfriend who was addicted to NetHack also didn't like). Please don't move the goalposts.

And guess what? The cool kids* decided that it shouldn`t be the course and baseless naysaying is the order of the day.

*sweeping generalization 

I would really appreciate it if you'd just argue based on what you think and not bait people. The rhetoric is needlessly inflammatory.

And again, I wrote an extremely long post explaining why my nay-saying was not baseless. You're free not to read it, but acting like it doesn't exist while addressing the jury isn't a point in your favor.

In fact, isn`t it hilarious that Chiefwaffles here just chided somebody for being negative in the Starbound thread - a procgen failure, released years ago - but I`m not allowed to cheer on a game which hasn`t even been released yet? Double standards much buddy?

First of all, you're allowed to cheer on whatever you like... buddy. This isn't cheering, this is attacking people for having a different opinion than you, and for sharing their point of view on a forum where you think that the tone should apparently be different than it actually is.

Second of all, the Starbound thread historically has problems with being about nothing but negativity, for years. You don't give a man with brain cancer an advil.

If you'd like to focus on the positive, you can ask nicely and be positive. I think that would be a great start.

So is this this out yet, or are we just going to continue argueplaining about proc gen until the procgenned cows come home?

*argueplains*

*milks the antler-udders of the procgenned cows, blue and green alike*

[Chiefwaffles]

Another post responding to Beggars because Vector's post made me notice something that I missed in Beggars' response.

In fact, isn`t it hilarious that Chiefwaffles here just chided somebody for being negative in the Starbound thread - a procgen failure, released years ago - but I`m not allowed to cheer on a game which hasn`t even been released yet? Double standards much buddy?

Opinions.
That and the fact that the Starbound thread is something like 15 pages of hype then 55 pages of repetitive negativity. The same thing being said over and over again. I just found the game that I played and made a judgement of after it was released fun. And I was tired of the loop of negativity.
That and your statement here doesn't even make sense. How is this double standards? How is me liking a game completely incompatible with me being skeptical of an upcoming game? What's wrong with holding those two different opinions?

Also seriously. What the fuck, Beggars? You say I'm attacking you but jesus fucking christ calm down. You're optimistic for the game. Sure. No need to attack others over different opinions.

EDIT: Also, it's kind of petty to attack people over completely unrelated remarks made in a separate thread.

[alway]

I finished exactly one playthrough of BoI, one playthrough of AC, and one playthrough of CivII. I figured out a winning strategy for the goal that I found most interesting and I didn't want to play those games anymore, because that's the kind of person I am. The procedural generation made everything too samey because I had developed a strategy that took it into account. Call me shallow if you like, but it's just not my thing. When I used to play .Hack//SIGN, I was able to figure out the rules that the designers used to make the dungeons. I could look at the floor plan and say: "ok, treasure chest that way, boss fight this way." I was never wrong, because they didn't put in rules to subvert their rules. It was really boring. Procedural generation has come a long way since then, but that experience stuck with me. I can't get excited about doing a dungeon built on the same rules as the last dungeon, populated by reskinned creatures with one-two attack patterns apiece, with treasures put within a certain randomized range.

I agree with this. Most procedural generation in games feels like...

"Hello, would you like to hear my symphony?"

"Sure!"

*Orchestra plays beautiful theme*
*Orchestra plays beautiful theme but shifted up one note*
*Orchestra plays beautiful theme but shifted down one note*
*Orchestra plays beautiful theme*
*Orchestra plays beautiful theme but shifted up one note*
*Orchestra plays beautiful theme but shifted down one note*
*Orchestra plays beautiful theme*
*Orchestra plays beautiful theme but shifted up one note*
*Orchestra plays beautiful theme but shifted down one note*

After half an hour of this, running out of politeness, you leave in the middle to avoid falling asleep.

There's just so much potential hinted at, but which is never realized into something more. And by not exploring that, misses the whole point.

[Glloyd]

How about you set up another thread for talking about proc gen and stop guessing about what NMS will be like before it comes out?

I wish SMF let you unsubscribe from threads, there hasn't been anything constructive in this thread in ages.

[Shadowlord]

Doesn't it?

[Greenbane]

How about you set up another thread for talking about proc gen and stop guessing about what NMS will be like before it comes out?

I wish SMF let you unsubscribe from threads, there hasn't been anything constructive in this thread in ages.

The game's not out and they haven't revealed all that much about it. The alternative for this thread is death.

You could try to have it locked, as there's no possible discussion about NMS outside speculation at this point.