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Author Topic: Polygamy  (Read 9183 times)

Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Polygamy
« Reply #75 on: January 06, 2015, 12:36:23 pm »

Yes, obviously racism and homophobia are far worse than creatures viciously slaughtering each other over trees being chopped down.

Mediaeval nobles compared to sports teams? Possibly, though the difference is that when there is a riot at a sports match and people die, that is not expected to happen (see Egypt), and the losers do not get imprisoned or worse. A closer analogue would be criminal gang warfare. Mass fights to the death are NOT comparable to modern sports, and should not be trivialised in that way.
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pisskop

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Re: Polygamy
« Reply #76 on: January 06, 2015, 12:36:54 pm »

Racism and homophobia are too much in my opinion. It's not something you want to include in a game like this.

No.  Its not something you 'have to add' to specific dwarves to be present, although its only sensible to add an opinion of 'deviancy' (to use the older term) or 'alternative lifestyle' (to use the PR term).    And thus positive and negative thoughts and crimes.   No, racism/sexism/intolerance is an emergent player quality.  Just by adding it to the game, it happens.

I can assure you I would be killing any men that get multiple wives, *I do kill men with multiple lovers*.  And that Ill kill/siezegoods elven trader if they continue to not respond or not siege me.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 12:39:17 pm by pisskop »
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Deboche

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Re: Polygamy
« Reply #77 on: January 06, 2015, 01:07:53 pm »

Yes, obviously racism and homophobia are far worse than creatures viciously slaughtering each other over trees being chopped down.
This is a different discussion. DF doesn't have any sex yet and I don't know how much it will have in the end but the criteria so far seems to be the same as the American film censorship. Violence of all kinds is fine, sex and nudity are not. Similarly, all kinds of gory violence are fine, hate crimes are a different thing altogether.

Not to mention that creatures slaughtering each other over trees that get chopped down is a crime that happens in the fantasy setting. Homophobia and racism are crimes that also exist in reality and for some people are still open wounds.

I can assure you I would be killing any men that get multiple wives, *I do kill men with multiple lovers*.  And that Ill kill/siezegoods elven trader if they continue to not respond or not siege me.
You're allowed to play however you like, based on your own prejudices and opinions. There have been discussions about homophobia in DF and I don't think it or racism should be included as part of the game.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Polygamy
« Reply #78 on: January 06, 2015, 01:14:29 pm »

Creatures slaughtering each other over trees being cut down is fantasy, except when it isn't. Loggers and local tribes who are having their area logged for farming may not get on so well. Blood has been shed over this.

Horrific, gory violence is not fictional and is an awful lot worse than prejudice in itself. Saying anything else is a double standard.

The USA has the biggest porn industry in the world, and an amendment protecting free speech. Their films are not censored much at all. The MPAA does not like sex, but guess what - they are not the law. Any censorship is done at their request for a rating, and not by force.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 01:17:28 pm by Urist Uristurister »
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dmatter

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Re: Polygamy
« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2015, 10:15:19 am »

Ugh. Getting through those six pages was hell guys. For starters, I want to point something out before I get into real life examples. And that is: Small scale societies tend not to control their populations via fighting and infanticide. The tendency, as I understand it, is they use out-migrations and settle new areas. This makes sense since any amount of serious fighting would leave their small scale economies completely devastated (and cause villages to dissolve). They tend to use relationships, debt, and credit to form exchanges. There's a few exceptions, such as the Yanomami, but even they tend not to be as violent as some author's describe them. *gets off of soap box and returns to topic*

Okay . . . You have several real life models to pull from for polygamy.

There's the Tibetan system, where you have one woman marrying multiple men. Usually brothers and the stated 'reason' (by ethnographers, I believe) is to keep land ownership in the family. So, infrastructure and the environment can have an impact on these types of social relationships, this could help 'inform' world gen (obviously historical contexts of civs are important as well).

On the other hand, you have polygamy where powerful actors tend to marry multiple wives and have concubines *cough* Cao Cao *cough*, but your average Joe only marries one woman.

You have the Canella, where when you marry into a family you are considered the 'husband' of all of her sisters as well (and their husbands are considered your wife's 'husband'). A bit interesting because that seems to radiate out and include all of the cousins (and their husbands) on the mother's side. Then again, I do believe that it is a matrilineal society.

There's also the case of Brazilian travesti, though they might be more polyamorous. They tend to have one boyfriend while having many clients. The material and social exchanges are interesting in that case. If prostitution ever makes it into the game it might be worth taking a look at how real life prostitutes juggle their social and intimate relationships. Quite a few women-men from American Indian traditions tended to be polyamorous as well though you did have monogamous pairings too.

There's also the Bedouins described by Abu-Lilu Lughod. Polygamy is common and the preference is to marry first cousins (first wife is usually a first cousin). This preference is due to the fact that a wife can leave at any time (though she can't take the kids), so first cousins tend to be trusted more. At least, that was my understanding.

Essentially, anything we can imagine plus some in nearly any context arranged in any fashion. Our little dwarves are based on Homo sapiens and we are adaptable as I'll get out.* Hell, there's no reason why you couldn't have 'homosexual' incestuous polygamy as the standard and once every five years there is a wife/husband exchange across families in order for pregnancies to happen. Though, I would recommend a reading of Vincanne Adams et al "Sex and Development" since Adams makes the case that sexuality is a new phenomena and the behaviors, feelings, etc that we proscribe to specific sexualities are not as hardcoded (socially) as we make them out to be. That is, sexuality is a recent phenomena. This seems to be the case in non-Western societies (and this really opens up the sorts of marriage arrangements we can see).

Oh, and I nearly forgot to point this out, matrilineal societies, from what I've read, also tended to be monogamous (the Canella are an exception). I haven't heard of many that were polygamous or polyamorous. The Iroquois, for instance, were matrilineal and monogamous. Most American Indian tribes that are matrilineal that I've read about tended to be monogamous. This isn't to say this is the 'natural' course, just with most of the cases that I'm familiar with, this is the case. Anyone claiming differently please include specific examples. Throwing around assertions with nothing to back them is, well, it is counter-productive d*** it.

*There is even cases of multilingual exogamy (AKA, you can't marry someone who's first language is the same as your own).
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Polygamy
« Reply #80 on: January 08, 2015, 11:03:24 am »

A huge variety of sexualities exist, but one based on homosexual incest seems a unlikely given that most people are not homosexual. Cousins marrying is common in some cultures, as is marriage between several siblings and somebody else, but a whole mixed gender society being primarily homosexual does not suit human or dwarven nature given the distribution of heterosexuals to homosexuals. When sexes are segregated, it is different (see prison), but dwarves are very gender integrated.

Matrilineal societies are mostly monogamous, which further supports the argument that monogamy does not equal patriarchy which I have been making for the last few pages.
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On the item is an image of a dwarf and an elephant. The elephant is striking down the dwarf.

For old times' sake.

Deboche

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Re: Polygamy
« Reply #81 on: January 08, 2015, 02:19:58 pm »

Thanks for the contribution dmatter. Is there a reference you pulled those examples from? It'd be cool if we could have those and maybe more as possibilities for the ethics systems.
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