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[LordBaal]

So.... the idea would be to have random morals for each civilization regarding this? The dwarves from the north hills have a custom for having several wifes but also accept homosexuality while the ones of the gray coast only reserve the right of several wives for the king but also banish homosexual dwarves (with most of them heading toward the north hills)? Meanwhile the eastern dwarves live on monogamy only and despise their devious cousins?

I can see how that could be complicated. Also the fact that cheating could occur when possible and in the case of happening on important entities it could lead to nasty consequences as wars. However too much variations (like my example above) could seem too incoherent for a single race, given that realistically social structure generally is a result of biology and/or technological, theological or simply practical progress/development.

Human history has seen something of everything, from free love to having your hand as your life partner. Currently the most widespread practice is monogamy, and I'll risk to say it has been so the last couple thousand years. (I could be wrong). Perhaps the game could set a main preference for a race, and then make little deviations or few exception on some of them.

In real life some monogamous societies accepted polygamous leaders for example, maybe that could be in the game too (as I pointed out in the second case on the example) and this cultural differences could add up some spicy frictions in the game as colliding cultures frown upon each other familiar costumes.

[Deboche]

Yeah, it's pretty complicated if done that way but it's probably best. Doing it at the civilization level would be simpler.

I think having one dwarven civilization or human civilization isn't very realistic. Humans tend to split into factions and it wouldn't make sense for a bunch of affluent dwarves to be subjects of a king on the other side of the world. Either way, maybe each of those factions, whether united under a single monarch or not will have their own morality system and polygamy should be tied into it somehow.

However, I doubt Toady will include discrimination of homossexual dwarves, it's just too dark.

[mate888]

I think polygamy could be used in the less "civilized" races, like kobolds and maybe goblins. But in the most civilized races (elves, humans and dwarves) I can't see it working.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Yeah, it's pretty complicated if done that way but it's probably best. Doing it at the civilization level would be simpler.

I think having one dwarven civilization or human civilization isn't very realistic. Humans tend to split into factions and it wouldn't make sense for a bunch of affluent dwarves to be subjects of a king on the other side of the world. Either way, maybe each of those factions, whether united under a single monarch or not will have their own morality system and polygamy should be tied into it somehow.

However, I doubt Toady will include discrimination of homossexual dwarves, it's just too dark.

Dwarven general lack of gender roles makes homophobia unlikely in my view, since homophobia usually stems from violation of acceptable gender roles, but I would like to see humans doing it sometimes. Homosexual humans may even seek refuge with the dwarves.

Dwarven sexual ethics can vary from place to place, being either monogamous or polygamous depending on culture and possibly what gods are worshipped. In monogamous places, dwarves marry, while in polygamous places they do not and have one or several lovers instead.

Polygamy never worked for civilised humans? Tell that to the Islamic world...unless you are about to say they are uncivilised, which I hope you are not.

[Deboche]

Wouldn't they be more likely to join the elves? Or is that homophobic?

[LordBaal]

Aren't all elves gay already?

Talking seriously, there's so many things that could be implemented, eunuchs, human homosexuals.... it's a rather touchy feeling.

[pisskop]

The main issue with polygamy, besides it taking away from real game development, is how it affects societies.
  Societies are fairly underdeveloped as is, and Id favor actual game-changing mechanics over a curiosity that could be left for modders.
    I could see an ethic or tokens for it.  But then it falls into a hard-coded behavior.  (for instance, you can't make babysnatchers eat their catches).

[LordBaal]

For now... the plan is eventually leave most things in the raws or modable.

[SixOfSpades]

Gorillas are monogamous and have small genitals, chimps are highly promiscuous and have big genitals, humans are somewhere in between.

Actually, I read that human (males) have the biggest genitalia of any primate, both in absolute size & relative to body mass. I have no source for this, sorry.

So.... the idea would be to have random morals for each civilization regarding this?

I think randomized ethics for civs is definitely the best way to go, and would explain a lot of the things we've seen so far. For example, right now all dwarf cultures have the same moral code, including [TORTURE_FOR_INFORMATION:PUNISH_CAPITAL]. So why do some dwarven civilizations have a god of torture? Which, theoretically, could be the most popular deity, openly worshiped by the rich & poor alike? The most likely solution seems to be to give each civilization a set of ethics that agrees with its already-randomized gods, or alternatively to randomize the culture's moral code, and then base the pantheon off that.

As I said earlier:

Each civilization would have these same traits, randomized at worldgen: One for that civ's acceptance of citizens engaging in free love, and another for that civ's understanding of homosexual relationships. (Each civ's Promiscuity must be kept above a certain minimum, and Homosexuality below a certain maximum, or the whole civilization would likely die out in just a generation or two.) As each child is born, his stats in these traits are modified (to some degree) by the culture into which he was born--he will be expected to conform to society's standards, leading him to possibly feel confined by constrictive rules, and/or disgusted by the depraved antics of others.

Also of interest is the dynamic of dwarves moving from one civilization to another, and possibly to another. Each dwarf's "true" values of Promiscuity and Sexuality would be paramount, but his behavior would likely be strongly pressured by the expectations of his society. As he migrates from one home to another, each culture would successively modify the dwarf's expressed desires; but each successive civilization would have less effect on his behavior than the previous one, to reflect the dwarf's becoming a bit more worldly, jaded, and aware that he can essentially pick & choose a culture that can suit him. This would lead to migrant dwarves acting in ways to which they had become accustomed in their previous forts: "She is a former member of the Tentacle of Sacks" and "He is a former member of the Cloistered Abbey" might not turn out to have a lot in common with each other, or with the social mores of your own fort.

[Deboche]

The main issue with polygamy, besides it taking away from real game development, is how it affects societies.
  Societies are fairly underdeveloped as is, and Id favor actual game-changing mechanics over a curiosity that could be left for modders.
    I could see an ethic or tokens for it.  But then it falls into a hard-coded behavior.  (for instance, you can't make babysnatchers eat their catches).

I think it'd be an interesting addition. DF will always have a lot of depth but the details are what makes it amazing. I like the idea of following my dwarves around and spying on their personal lives. At this moment social interaction isn't very good but I think it will become an important part of the game. The possibility of polygamy would make things more interesting.

Actually, I read that human (males) have the biggest genitalia of any primate, both in absolute size & relative to body mass. I have no source for this, sorry.

I think they have the biggest penises. What I said there refers to testicles, my bad. Still, a bigger penis is even further evidence that we're polygamous, I think, given that gorillas have such small ones.

Also of interest is the dynamic of dwarves moving from one civilization to another, and possibly to another. Each dwarf's "true" values of Promiscuity and Sexuality would be paramount, but his behavior would likely be strongly pressured by the expectations of his society.

I like this idea. This is where cheating comes in - a dwarf with a tendency towards promiscuity in a morally monogamous society.

[SixOfSpades]

"He is married to Kubuk Lobsterhame. He is the father of Ingish Tradeheats and Asen Dustcastle. He thinks he is the father of Vucar Pageoils."

[Sheb]

Can't this be included in civilization morals?

I'm not sure we need homophobia in the game anymore than we need racism though.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Can't this be included in civilization morals?

I'm not sure we need homophobia in the game anymore than we need racism though.

Racism already exists in DF, if the typical reception of elves in some players' forts is anything to go by - unless you count that as species-ism, of course. Homophobia and racism should certainly be options for humans, and goblins should hate everybody who is not a goblin.

A wide range of ethics should be available, including the option of prejudice in some cases. That includes homophobia and racism.

If adultery is added in societies with marriage (not free love/full polygamy), then creatures born from polygamous relationships should be bastards and not considered part of the family unless they are legitimised by marriage - though they can always make claims and cause trouble...

If all elves were gay, they would soon mostly be dead from lack of breeding and continued violent death, and while that would greatly please some players, that is not the case.

[LordBaal]

Perhaps they use magic in order to avoid copulation?

It was a joke. Take for example the awesome Cacame, elf king under the mountain, he went on a rampage and ended up being king of both dwarves and death itself out of hi female wife being killed.

[Deboche]

Racism and homophobia are too much in my opinion. It's not something you want to include in a game like this.

However, a certain rivalry does and should always exist between different factions. You could take medieval nobles fighting for land and compare it to sports teams nowadays. Sports has kinda made it friendly and harmless most of the time although there are still hooligans in England and the Netherlands and other places.

Maybe it could be some variable in the creatures' personalities. Distrust of foreign things or something like that. A dwarf that has a low value would welcome foreigners, be curious about them and even adopt some of their habits while others would be reactionary, agressive and scared of them.