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[Deboche]

This suggestion was sparked by the conversation going on in the "Women soldiers" thread in Gameplay Questions.

I think we should have the option to have our dwarves be polygamous. As pointed out in that other thread, we don't know much about dwarven evolution but there doesn't seem to be a reason why they shouldn't be polygamous.

Dwarves live in small communities, which are often polygamous when it comes to humans.

Dwarves are mammals. The vast majority of mammal species engages in polygamous sexual activity. If I'm not mistakened, all apes do so.

I suggested there's a correlation between patriarchy, sexual and gender repression and monogamy and a lot of users don't agree. In any case, dwarven society is quite permissive; it allows for homossexual coupling and women in positions of power who share the same rights and liberties as men. There doesn't seem to be any religious dogma or societal repression so why shouldn't they be polygamous?

[vjmdhzgr]

I think a good reason for dwarves not being polygamous is that it would result in more children, which most people hate. It seems a decent thing to add as some kind of token for entities though. I doubt Toady would make vanilla dwarves polygamous though, and I also doubt that this will be added for quite a while.

[Deboche]

Actually, I don't think it would increase the population. Those small tribes I mentioned have a very strict population control and even a very eco-friendly relationship with their habitats.

In a civilized society, the best way to stop population booms is to educate the women. Educated women are less likely to accept being mothers of 10+ children, probably because education empowers them. Dwarf women are very empowered already, even though dwarven education seems to be a bit lacking.

Edit: And deciding to have that many children is usually because the male wants to have descendents. In a polygamous system, nobody knows who the fathers of the kids are.

[vjmdhzgr]

Actually, I don't think it would increase the population. Those small tribes I mentioned have a very strict population control and even a very eco-friendly relationship with their habitats.

In a civilized society, the best way to stop population booms is to educate the women. Educated women are less likely to accept being mothers of 10+ children, probably because education empowers them. Dwarf women are very empowered already, even though dwarven education seems to be a bit lacking.

Edit: And deciding to have that many children is usually because the male wants to have descendents. In a polygamous system, nobody knows who the fathers of the kids are.

Yeah, what you're saying is complete nonsense. I mean, maybe in real life that works, but this is Dwarf Fortress not real life. The way Dwarf Fortress worked until recently was that if there was a male and a female wild animal the female wild animal was constantly in some stage of pregnancy. That's changed slightly, and with dwarves it's restricted to married couples, but the same thing applies that they have as many children as possible.

[Deboche]

We could either implement contraception or take a suggestion from another thread here where if your population reaches a high number you can send a bunch of dwarves away to start a new fortress.

[vjmdhzgr]

We could either implement contraception or take a suggestion from another thread here where if your population reaches a high number you can send a bunch of dwarves away to start a new fortress.

Sending dwarves away isn't really what that suggestion was, and you probably couldn't send children away. Contraception, eh, it doesn't feel like it fits though that is Toady's choice to make. Anyway, population was just a simple reason a lot of people would dislike it from a practical standpoint. I think polygamy probably should be added as an entity token eventually which could end up being applied to civilizations randomly once civilizations get randomized. I don't think it's really something that should be applied to vanilla dwarves until those random civilizations get added though, because it's not a very dwarven thing. Even if you make some crazy argument about, like, patriarchal societies always being a certain way and matriarchal societies being the other, and dwarves are obviously that one or that all creatures are polygamous and dwarves should be or something, Dwarf Fortress is a generic fantasy setting generator, and I think it would be a significant challenge to find any setting where dwarves are polygamous.

[Deboche]

Well, children will always have to be part of a fort. Any population anywhere will always have children. They won't be so annoying when they start to do some apprenticeships. I don't think it's a good enough reason to stop polygamy.

Especially because if you think about it, all those dwarven ladies will have relationships anyway and get pregnant anyway. The only increase in children will come from the bissexuals who would have monogamic lesbian relationships otherwise.

As for the argument about dwarven culture, dwarves in fantasy and so on, I'd refer you to homossexuality. It's not what first comes to mind when you think of dwarves and it's in the game.

[Vattic]

I'd like to see ethics relating to stuff like this randomly given to civs to add flavour.

[Pyrite]

I'd like to see ethics relating to stuff like this randomly given to civs to add flavour.

I agree. It would especially make sense for a lot of the human civilizations, but I wouldn't see it as impossible for Dwarven civs. I really think it should be a civilization level thing.

Dwarves live in small communities, which are often polygamous when it comes to humans.

I disagree. Our fortresses are often the exception, because theres a limit to how many dwarves a player wants to manage and how many moving creatures you processor can handle, but it's implied that the mountainhomes where your dwarves came from are much more populated, and the game is moving in the direction of your mountain dwarves eventually being connected to a much larger population of hill dwarves.

And colonies from civilizations which practice monogamy, if anything, intensify their monogamy as everyone is watching everyone else more closely.

[Adragis]

I'd like to see ethics relating to stuff like this randomly given to civs to add flavour.

Yes, that would be quite interesting.
Question: When you say 'randomly given' do you mean generated at worldgen or something?

[Urist Tilaturist]

Deboche is talking nonsense, but not because it does not apply to DF. The whole point is that it is a suggestion.

The main problem seems to be that he thinks male dominated societies are "monogamous" while equal societies are "polygamous". This ignores the fact that most past societies were not monogamous, but instead held a double standard. Men often had mistresses or even other wives, but women were not allowed to be promiscuous themselves or they would be classed along with prostitutes as unsavoury women. The need for men to know that they were the father led to the demands for virgin wives and punishments for female adultery, but once they had their virgin wives many of these men went off and conceived bastards with lower class mistresses while expecting their wives to stay at home!

Polygamy of this sort benefits males far more than females. A man can impregnate hundreds of women, but a woman cannot be impregnated by hundreds of men! This leads to harem societies, as seen in many mammals, where a dominant male impregnates all the females while driving other males away. This also sometimes creates patriarchy, since the biggest males are more likely to win fights and breed, and so males become bigger than females.

Free love, or polyamory, is a very different system from the polygamy practised in many places, since the double standard is gone. This is a gender equal system, but so is true monogamy or serial monogamy as seen in some birds and dwarves. The sexist part is the double standard, where only men are allowed to be promiscuous. True monogamy, where neither partner is allowed to have any others, is sexually conservative but not innately sexist and may suit the females more for the reasons I have already given. If dwarves had inheritance, and they likely will in future, it would pass on regardless of gender.

Dwarven culture is accepting of homosexuality, but is also monogamous. The lack of sexual dimorphism also supports this, since males are usually bigger in harem societies for the reasons I have given. It does not exclude free love, but dwarves may not really want it. Whether or not anyone else's dwarves want it is irrelevant, DF is not Tolkien or any other work containing dwarves. Our dwarves can be however we like.

Small tribes have excellent population control, in the form of infanticide, frequent fighting and disease. They are environmentally sustainable only in that their populations do not reach a big enough size for them not to be; human damage to the ecosystem is largely because of the demands of a huge population.

[Sheb]

Yeah, randomly generated marriage system would be cool. Monogamy, polygamy, polyandry, polyamorous. And then way to break those rules. How cool would it be to find out that your cheesemaker's son is really the bowyer's? And have them hate each others for that?

[Deboche]

How cool would it be to find out that your cheesemaker's son is really the bowyer's? And have them hate each others for that?

For this sort of thing to happen, you'd need to have polygamy as practiced in social monogamy societies. Where people form monogamic relationships and then cheat.

Deboche is talking nonsense

Very constructive...

This leads to harem societies, as seen in many mammals, where a dominant male impregnates all the females while driving other males away. This also sometimes creates patriarchy, since the biggest males are more likely to win fights and breed, and so males become bigger than females.

That's the case with gorillas for example. But we're talking about dwarves and humans where the difference in size isn't so pronounced. They are more like chimps and bonobos who are polygamous and where everyone has sex.

True monogamy, where neither partner is allowed to have any others, is sexually conservative but not innately sexist and may suit the females more for the reasons I have already given.

What reasons? You only talked about relationships where only the men get to be polygamous.

Dwarven culture is accepting of homosexuality, but is also monogamous. The lack of sexual dimorphism also supports this, since males are usually bigger in harem societies for the reasons I have given. It does not exclude free love, but dwarves may not really want it. Whether or not anyone else's dwarves want it is irrelevant, DF is not Tolkien or any other work containing dwarves. Our dwarves can be however we like.

Here you contradict yourself several times. You speak of dwarven culture being accepting of homossexuality which it isn't, Toady made it that way. Lack of sexual dimorphism goes against harem societies, true, but that isn't the only form of polygamy. You say dwarves don't want it - what is this based on? Then you say dwarves can be however we like - why not polygamous?

[Sheb]

Well, how would we go along implementing procedural generated matrimonial systems? Just a few systems civilizations can choose from, or something else?

[Deboche]

I guess it would work somewhat like ethics. Aren't those going to be randomized?