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Author Topic: Dwarven military; what materials are best for what use  (Read 8967 times)

Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Dwarven military; what materials are best for what use
« on: January 01, 2015, 01:56:49 am »

I've got a few questions about starting a military in what I'm hoping will be my longest running fort.(fingers crossed)
I've got workshops and materials ready, as well as workers in the needed fields for producing weapons/armor. I just need fresh migrants and training.

I was hoping this thread could be used to find out what materials are best for what use.
Like if a silver or copper is better for spear making?
Or are bone helmets better than copper helmets?
Are silver arrows better than copper ones?
Which is better for a shield; wood, copper, or silver?
What material is best for body armor bone or copper?

I'll ask more questions later but those are my big ones, I don't know much about which materials are better in game nor do I know of a research done on it that is easy to read or find..
Thanks for any answers
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 04:00:38 am by Cryxis, Prince of Doom »
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Dwarven military; what materials are best for what use
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2015, 04:01:10 am »

Also is it better to have metal bone or wood crossbows?
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Larix

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Re: Dwarven military Q&A
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2015, 04:10:04 am »

Ranking of combat metals, tested in .34.11:
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Weapon#Combat_testing

In general, all metals are far superior to bone and leather in armour-making. Silver is about the best material for maces and war hammers, but is the _worst_ metal for edged weaponry.

Crossbows of all materials perform the same as ranged weapons. Metal crossbows are atrociously awful as bashing weapons, while wooden and bone ones are completely useless. The conclusion here should _not_ be to use metal crossbows, but rather to make sure your marksdwarfs don't wade into melee.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Dwarven military; what materials are best for what use
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2015, 04:14:01 am »

Ok, would using bone helmets and misc bone armor for wrestling training work to keep injuries out of mind or should I wait till I have plenty of metal armor before I start training them?
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Sergarr

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Re: Dwarven military; what materials are best for what use
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2015, 04:18:28 am »

1) Copper is better cuz higher SHEAR_YIELD and SHEAR_FRACTURE
2) Copper helmets are better cuz higher SHEAR_YIELD and SHEAR_FRACTURE against edged damage and higher IMPACT_YIELD and IMPACT_FRACTURE against blunt damage
3) Copper arrows are better cuz higher SHEAR_YIELD and SHEAR_FRACTURE
4) Doesn't matter, shields work the same regardless of material
5) Copper is better for body armor cuz higher SHEAR_YIELD and SHEAR_FRACTURE against edged damage and higher IMPACT_YIELD and IMPACT_FRACTURE against blunt damage

For blunt weapons - weight is the only factor that matters.

For edged weapons - SHEAR_YIELD, SHEAR_FRACTURE - determines if it cuts or not, SHARPNESS - determines how easily it cuts through if it cuts;

For armor - SHEAR_YIELD, SHEAR_FRACTURE - against cutting, IMPACT_YIELD, IMPACT_FRACTURE - against blunt damage.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Dwarven military; what materials are best for what use
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2015, 10:33:45 am »

Ok


Still for now I have yet to melt down the metals and heat up the forges. So would bone armor work just for the training to keep people from getting severe injuries from getting thrown?
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Niddhoger

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Re: Dwarven military; what materials are best for what use
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2015, 11:22:31 am »

All shields may block the same, but they don't BASH the same.  Shields of a higher weight (copper is the heaviest non-artifact armor metal, iirc) will bash for more damage.  So if your dorf gets disarmed (or literally disARMed as a hydra chomps off his weapon arm) he can still bash for SOME damage with a heavier metal shield.  Its the same for crossbows.  If you want... you can make them out of silver so that they bash for at least some damage.  When they run out of bolts they can decide to become hammerdorfs and charge into melee.  Or perhaps they got swarmed by mounted gobbos.  Both are terrible situations... that benefit from heavier crossbows.  Silver is the preferred metal if you are worried they might get in melee range.  If you have them bunkered behind a moat and fortifications you can skimp on metal and just give them lightweight bone crossbows (wood being needed for beds, bins, and charcoal).

However, encumbrance is also an issue.  Dwarves will actually be slowed down by heavy metal armor.  The "Armor Training" skill helps tremendously with this, but doesn't remove it entirely.  This is why some people leave their marksdorfs in a combination of (lightweight) leather and bone.  The less encumbered they are, the better they can stay ahead of melee enemies. 

BTW, Platinum is actually the heaviest metal in the game.  Its not considered weapons-grade, but there is no stopping a weaponsmith that likes both platinum and war hammers from making you the most powerful skull crushing weapon in the game... (silver war hammers are superior to ADAMANTIUM axes for fighting humanoids and platinum is better than silver for this)  If they just like Maces/warhammers you'll have to forbid every non-platinum bar of metal until he grabs the right bar.  If he just likes Platinum... you could end up with a platinum dagger.  Goes great in a weapon-trap in your dining room.  Otherwise consider save scumming to lessen the heartbreak.   
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Dwarven military; what materials are best for what use
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2015, 11:36:07 am »

I have had a platinum war hammer artifact before and it was glorious, though I didn't have much of a military at the time so I have it to my hammerer (prosecuter person?) and he used it to much effect in dampening a spiral. Killed a their in one blow and two others throwing tantrums. Then I sent him into battle against my first Titan attack along with my ragtag militia.
That was one of my favorite weapons ever made in any of my forts.

I was planning on making silver or copper spears for one or two squads of spear dwarves armored in copper and a squad of marks dwarves armed with probably bone crossbows, silver bolts, and leather armor and bone helmets.
would silver be better for spears or would copper be better for spears?
Would bone make better helmets than leather?
Would silver make better bolts than copper?
(I think I heard someone say silver was better for piercing things)
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Sergarr

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Re: Dwarven military; what materials are best for what use
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2015, 11:40:22 am »

(I think I heard someone say silver was better for piercing things)

Silver is the _worst_ metal for edged weaponry.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Dwarven military; what materials are best for what use
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2015, 11:45:02 am »

I thought piercing was different from edge weapons
Ie spears bolts arrows pikes vs swords axes
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Sergarr

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Re: Dwarven military; what materials are best for what use
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2015, 11:47:52 am »

They are the same, the only difference is contact area.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Dwarven military; what materials are best for what use
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2015, 11:49:53 am »

Isn't surface area the difference between all weapons types though?
Like blunt being a much larger surface area than edged
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Niddhoger

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Re: Dwarven military; what materials are best for what use
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2015, 11:57:49 am »

As far as the best uses for each weapon...

As I mentioned, testing has confirmed that warhammers are the best for instant killing humanoids.  A silver warhammer hit to the head will often crush the skull and destroy the brain (obviously an instant kill) in the first round.  This is because warhammers have high weight concentrated into a small surface area.  This allows the weapon to puncture through armor and cause organ damage. 

Their cousins are spears.  Not normally a good weapon, but they are also armor puncturing organ slayers.  This makes them the preferred weapon for kill giant beasties.  Hydra's have so many heads to smash/chop off, and their great size makes it very hard for a hammer to actually reach a vital organ.  Enter the spear (literally) which can instantly kill a hydra by piercing its heart or lung.  This works on pretty much any large beast.  They can still skewer smaller enemies (killing them instantly), but spears get stuck easier.  For general goblin and small bestie killing, axes tend to be preferred.

Axes will dismember your opponents.  They tend to be both heavy and edged, so can shear through armor.  They don't tend to instantly kill as fast, but something without a leg/arm will generally go down from pain and bleed out.  They make excellent general purposes weapons... maybe not the best against any specific type, but still hella deadly against most.  There is one glaring problem with axes, which leads us to...

Maces.  Shitty weapon but the only thing worth considering against undead.  Maces kill much slower than other weapons because they rely on pulping damage and fractured bones.  For normal enemies this is wasted time when an spear/hammer would have killed it instantly or an axelord chop their leg off and then gone for the head when the enemy fell to the ground.  Undead, however... can be reanimated.  So if you are in an evil biome (or in the presence of a necromancer), you want to make sure the undead goes down and stays down.  They are immune to organ failure, which makes spears entirely worthless.  Hammers still do some pulping damage, but lose their one-hit-kill status and still do far less pulping than maces.  Swords rely on causing bleed outs... also worthless.  Axes actually make the matter worse.  Why fight one zombie, when you can cut off its arm so it can reanimate and strangle you from behind while you fight the rest of it! Enter the mace.  No dismemberments and lots of "general" damage make sure the corpse doesn't multiply and stays down.  Zombies can't reanimate when they are a saggy sack of liquefied tissue and splintered bones.  I cannot repeat the part about axes enough though.  Legendary axelords will tend to sever at least one limb off every opponent.  In evil lands or near necro's this becomes quite the nightmare. 

Don't use swords.  They can't one-hit-kill like a spear or warhammer.  They are better than maces... but not against undead.  They can't shear off limbs or cut through armor like an axe either.  They just don't shine in any area.  Axes are the superior all-around weapon in every case except undead... which is where you use maces and maces alone.

Marksdorfs can't puncture and kill enemies like they used to.  Punctured hearts and lungs from bolts were common before which lead to xbows being insane.  A skilled shield user could easily neutralize this, but those that didn't became corpses.  They could easily slaughter squads from a distance.  They are still good at softening up enemies though... just keep them behind fortifications or moats.  The bonus is that hunting labor trains marksdorf (and ambusher).  So if you want you can have a hunter from the start to gain (slow) training and some useful byproducts (more bones to make hunting bone bolts too).
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Niddhoger

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Re: Dwarven military; what materials are best for what use
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2015, 12:04:20 pm »

Isn't surface area the difference between all weapons types though?
Like blunt being a much larger surface area than edged

Nope.  There are 3 main types though.  Slashing, piercing, and blunt.  Contact area is important, but not everything.  Piercing relies on organ failure.  Slashing relies on bleeding an opponent out/overwhleming them with pain until you shear off a limb, and blunt smashes through armor.  This is mostly about damaging tissue/bones... but yes, contact area helps the warhammer also become a combo blunt/piercing weapon.  This is the secret to its extreme deadliness. 

Btw... a deadly hammer is actually the worst thing you can have.  As you saw, he'll kill off any dorf he punishes.  Its actually best to have your hammer as a marksdorf for this reason.  Even the heaviest crossbows will only leave mild beatings compared to the blood stain a warhammer will.  If the tantruming dorf is irredeemable... that is what bridges over magma are for.  Otherwise having a dorf kill another dorf sets up future spirals. 
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StagnantSoul

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Re: Dwarven military; what materials are best for what use
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2015, 12:06:15 pm »

The above has obviously never had a sword master. A good swordsman will hack off body parts as easily as an axe dwarf, especially given steel or adamantine. Also, with brains now being smaller than heads, whereas before the brain was bigger than the head, and the bone defence increase, maces and hammers have lost some of their one hit killyness. They'll still kill, just not as fast as before.
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