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Author Topic: Cave adaptation question  (Read 2151 times)

catten

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Cave adaptation question
« on: December 30, 2014, 08:34:34 pm »

So... we know that putting dwarves in dark underground for too long makes them vomit their brains out when they go outside, which is bad if you ever need them to be useful outdoors.

Going by the wiki article, I always thought that a [light] [inside] meeting area would cure cave adaptation, but this thread suggests that [inside] would only prevent existing cave adaptation from becoming worse, and that dorfs actually need to spend time [outside] to reverse cave adaptation.

Do we actually know how different tile types impact cave adaptation?
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utunnels

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Re: Cave adaptation question
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2014, 09:09:43 pm »

To cure them you need to put them under sun (outside, no roof), make them suffer.

By the way, I glanced at your title and id and thought it was about cat adoption.
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Aslandus

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Re: Cave adaptation question
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2014, 11:13:45 pm »

Inside light areas keep the cave adaptation counter the same, but still cause vomiting if cave adaptation has occurred. Outside light areas reduce or remove cave adaptation. Usually the problems of cave adaptation are pretty small though, you would probably be fine as long as you have your anti-goblin/megabeast/titan military squad training outside so they aren't hindered by stunning and dizziness in battle...

peridot

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Re: Cave adaptation question
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2015, 03:34:36 pm »

Do we have Science on this or is this guesswork? Specifically, do Inside Light squares reduce cave adaptation or not? They definitely trigger nausea. I would really rather not expose my dwarves to fliers, but if there's no other way I can at least put my barracks outdoors and hope the marksdwarves take down annoying fliers promptly.
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GhostDwemer

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Re: Cave adaptation question
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2015, 04:01:45 pm »

I'm pretty sure there is Science on this and it is not guesswork, as the wiki lists the specific conditions and amounts by which cave adaptation increases or decreases. I recall Quietust spelling it out in a thread a while back. Not sure how reading the wiki page could make anyone think inside tiles cure cave adaptation, the wording is clear:
Quote
If a dwarf is in a "Dark" tile, cave adaptation increases by 1 every tick to a maximum of 800,000 (403,200 ticks is one year, so the maximum is just short of 2 years).
If a dwarf is in an "Outside" tile, cave adaptation decreases by 10 every tick.
If a dwarf is in an "Outside" tile while the sun is out (i.e. not raining or snowing), the following happens:
If cave adaptation is at 604,800 or higher (1.5 years), the dwarf will experience Nausea, Dizziness, Pain, and Fatigue. The dwarf will also receive the unhappy thought "was nauseated by the sun recently".
If cave adaptation is between 403,200 and 604,800 (between 1 and 1.5 years), the dwarf will become Dizzy and experience reduced amounts of Pain and Fatigue. The dwarf will also receive the unhappy thought "was irritated by the sun recently".
Otherwise, nothing bad happens.

Inside Light tiles do not reduce cave adaptation. According to the wiki, they do not trigger the syndrome, either. In fact, the syndrome shouldn't be triggered during rain or snow, according to the wiki. I've had good luck with outdoor archery targets next to the training grounds, the archers shoot down fliers pretty regularly. There aren't really too many nasty flying types, flying thieves like keas are probably the worst you'll see, and anything truly nasty like a megabeast or flying titan will pause the game when it appears on the map, giving you time to get people indoors if necessary.

I usually put some statues outside in a protected area, to encourage idlers to go outdoors once in a while.
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peridot

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Re: Cave adaptation question
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2015, 11:44:12 pm »

I'm pretty sure there is Science on this and it is not guesswork, as the wiki lists the specific conditions and amounts by which cave adaptation increases or decreases. I recall Quietust spelling it out in a thread a while back. Not sure how reading the wiki page could make anyone think inside tiles cure cave adaptation, the wording is clear:
Quote
If a dwarf is in a "Dark" tile, cave adaptation increases by 1 every tick to a maximum of 800,000 (403,200 ticks is one year, so the maximum is just short of 2 years).
If a dwarf is in an "Outside" tile, cave adaptation decreases by 10 every tick.
If a dwarf is in an "Outside" tile while the sun is out (i.e. not raining or snowing), the following happens:
If cave adaptation is at 604,800 or higher (1.5 years), the dwarf will experience Nausea, Dizziness, Pain, and Fatigue. The dwarf will also receive the unhappy thought "was nauseated by the sun recently".
If cave adaptation is between 403,200 and 604,800 (between 1 and 1.5 years), the dwarf will become Dizzy and experience reduced amounts of Pain and Fatigue. The dwarf will also receive the unhappy thought "was irritated by the sun recently".
Otherwise, nothing bad happens.

Inside Light tiles do not reduce cave adaptation. According to the wiki, they do not trigger the syndrome, either. In fact, the syndrome shouldn't be triggered during rain or snow, according to the wiki. I've had good luck with outdoor archery targets next to the training grounds, the archers shoot down fliers pretty regularly. There aren't really too many nasty flying types, flying thieves like keas are probably the worst you'll see, and anything truly nasty like a megabeast or flying titan will pause the game when it appears on the map, giving you time to get people indoors if necessary.

I usually put some statues outside in a protected area, to encourage idlers to go outdoors once in a while.

Well, I had read the wiki, and aside from the parts where it contradicts itself, I have doubts about its accuracy. In particular, Inside Light squares definitely trigger the syndrome: the central staircase for my fort is Inside Light (green glass constructed stairs; yes I know they don't need to be glass), as is the barracks, and both are coated with vomit from all the nauseated dwarves. (Fortunately vomit is not obvious on green glass floor tiles!)

If we believe the wiki, apart from the question of whether it's Light/Dark or Inside/Outside that matters, then for dwarves to stay comfortable with light they must spend at least ten percent of their time in tiles that decrease cave adaptation. So I'm not sure that my main staircase idea is going to work: if my busy dwarves are spending ten percent of their time walking up and down stairs I need to rethink my fortress layout. Similarly the glass-roofed statue garden might help (if Inside Light is good enough) but only if the idle dwarves spend a lot of their lives there. The barracks should be fine, since the soldiers spend all their time in there.

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Pirate Santa

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Re: Cave adaptation question
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2015, 05:46:10 am »

Well, I had read the wiki, and aside from the parts where it contradicts itself, I have doubts about its accuracy.
Where does the wiki contradict itself?

In particular, Inside Light squares definitely trigger the syndrome: the central staircase for my fort is Inside Light (green glass constructed stairs; yes I know they don't need to be glass), as is the barracks, and both are coated with vomit from all the nauseated dwarves. (Fortunately vomit is not obvious on green glass floor tiles!)
Indoor Light squares do not trigger the syndrome. Once a dwarf goes outside and gets sick they will leave a trail of vomit every few steps for a while until they get over it.

If we believe the wiki, apart from the question of whether it's Light/Dark or Inside/Outside that matters, then for dwarves to stay comfortable with light they must spend at least ten percent of their time in tiles that decrease cave adaptation. So I'm not sure that my main staircase idea is going to work: if my busy dwarves are spending ten percent of their time walking up and down stairs I need to rethink my fortress layout. Similarly the glass-roofed statue garden might help (if Inside Light is good enough) but only if the idle dwarves spend a lot of their lives there. The barracks should be fine, since the soldiers spend all their time in there.
Sorry, glass constructions (floors, stairs, walls, etc.) do not allow light to enter. All that will do is create an Indoor Light area that holds adaptation at its current level. Windows will allow line of sight but will not allow light to enter.
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