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[Capntastic]

Exactly.   I can't see more people working on DF speeding anything up, unless it's some specific task you ask someone you've worked with for a while to do.

[dreiche2]

Na, I think we shouldn't start a big discussion about whether (semi-)open source would make sense/be more efficient or not, because IMO that's not really the point.

The point is whether Toady *feels* like it or not  

I mean, seriously, this whole game is so much of a fey mood's work, I wouldn't want to interfere at the risk that the creator is to going to be struck by melancholy or something. Okay that wasn't really serious, either  

Having said that, I myself wouldn't mind pondering about things like pathfinding etc, either. But yeah, sometimes ideas do get incorporated by Toady - I think that was at least partially the case for a long fluid mechanics discussion we had in the 'future of the fortress' thread.

Anyway...

[DDouble]

I don't understand why people would get irritated at experienced coders trying to offer assistance to Toady in any way they can.

It doesn't hurt anyone for someone to put up some well-thought out ideas and interesting problem solving approaches (i really enjoyed reading the original post here). Toady can read it and dismiss it at no cost to anyone.

[Capntastic]

quote:Originally posted by DDouble:
<STRONG>I don't understand why people would get irritated at experienced coders trying to offer assistance to Toady in any way they can.

It doesn't hurt anyone for someone to put up some well-thought out ideas and interesting problem solving approaches (i really enjoyed reading the original post here). Toady can read it and dismiss it at no cost to anyone.</STRONG>

I think it's the difference between saying "Hey Toady do you use <special>?  It might speed the game up!" , suggesting the use of said algorithm, and "Oh god Toady please let me program for you I can sleep in your closet I won't make much noise at all please let me in on this; reveal your precious code to me".

The former has happened quite a few times (Like with the Kobold Quest porting, and Zip helping with the save methods and such).   The latter is brought up every few months by someone who loves the game and wants to help it without taking into account that Toady pretty firmly wants to be 100% in control of everything.

[CharonX]

TheSilverHammer, this is what I'd do:

If a stroke of genius hits you for optimizing flow mechanics/ai/pathing, post it as a suggestion on the Suggestion forum.
Maybe even use pseudocode to describe the raw workings, and if you want to go the extra mile, implement a version as a neat java applet and link to it.

This way Toady can check it out (if he wants) and maybe use it as an inspiration to his code (or maybe not).

Of course, this is kinda gamble, as I'd give you about 1 in 5 chance that your idea gets used, but you'll have to accept that if you do it.

[Yourself]

Or maybe you could even publish an academic paper about it.

[Torak]

Oh source codes, when will the strife you cause fail to rear it's head?

[Capntastic]

quote:Originally posted by CharonX:
<STRONG> I'd give you about 1 in 5 chance that your idea gets used, but you'll have to accept that if you do it.</STRONG>

I dunno.   Toady's pretty good about using ideas that are useful, and not just "Hey Toady you're not using my preferred algorithm/number generator/color scheme for this task!! I demand you rectify this."

[Nil Eyeglazed]

1) Group pathing: It would be efficient.  It would require "special case" treatment of individuals, which is something more appropriate to a final commercial build-- when a game is alpha, you don't take shortcuts that will break possible developments.  Optimization of pet pathing is important-- just pit your animals and watch your framecount to see what I mean-- but I can understand waiting to do this until you know EXACTLY how you want to treat animals, slaves, liasons, squadmates, pursuing mobs, etc.  It makes a lot of sense to me to start out with logic-expensive routines and optimize as necessary.  (Not that anybody really thinks this is a commercial game.  It'll be under development forever, and that's a good thing.)

Skipping player-designated paths.

3) Automated path-mapping: Makes a lot of sense with a static fortress-- but these aren't static.  There's the potential for the cost being greater than the benefit.  Yeah, Copperblazes would do well with some automated path-mapping.  But an initial fortress would take a hit.  Not that I don't think it's a good idea.  Initial fortresses have fps to spare; established fortresses do not.

2) Player-designated paths: Steeper learning curve.  Not really a bad idea though; it preserves basic DF while allowing fps increase.

Mostly?  It's boring junk to program.  If this were a commercial game, sure, somebody would have to do this crap.  But given that DF is some guy who's good at what he does and wants to have fun doing it, who can blame him for prioritizing procedurally generated cybermagic gas-exchange organs?  And really, would you rather have a few more fps instead of that?

[Rictus]

I know a lot of those early responses were meant in good humour, but I don't know why people get so annoyed by folks wanting to help Toady out. Yeah, he's publicly turned down help before, and it is in the FAQ, but come on, I think its really gratifying that people are so often willing to lend a hand, usually on a volunteer basis too.

Roll with the punches guys.  That new people want to come along and help out is a good thing, and should be treated as such!

[Capntastic]

quote:Originally posted by Rictus:
<STRONG>I know a lot of those early responses were meant in good humour, but I don't know why people get so annoyed by folks wanting to help Toady out. Yeah, he's publicly turned down help before,</STRONG>

That's the thing.   If these people were really understanding of the project, they'd realize that Toady's truly invested in doing this mostly on his own.

Likewise, considering that the source fo Kobold Quest was out for about a year before it (just recently) started to become ported properly to Mac shows that these people who 'really want to help' aren't exactly the most efficient team members.

[Sowelu]

Ouch, Capntastic.  That stings, and I'm not even one of the people you're referring to!

But yeah.  In my experience, coding-help is always best when it's *solicited*, not when it's offered.  Not flaming the offerers, just that it's...not something you should expect to be taken up on.  This is true in most areas of life, actually, not just coding.

And remember, there's a very, very important rule in coding.  It says ALWAYS OPTIMIZE LAST.  Pathing clearly isn't remotely *done* yet, so it's way too early to think about optimizing it!  Agreed that pets in enclosed spaces could use some work, but the disadvantages of having to integrate another person's code are vastly, vastly larger than the benefits.  DF relies heavily on the artist having absolute knowledge of the entire program!

...'course I'm also of the opinion that the world needs -more- single-coder works of art in it. *pokes TheSilverHammer* Get to it!

[Capntastic]

I'm not trying to hurt any feelings.   I'm just pointing out that some people seem to want to help out without really showing they have a strong understanding of what Toady's goals are.

[Rictus]

That's a fair enough comment, I guess. But not everyone has been around as long as you (or I) have.  They just haven't had the experience or time to notice that this is a one-Toad job. And to be honest, I don't blame them for not noticing immediately: a one person coding effort is a rare thing these days, especially one as open and promising as this is.

So, as I said, welcome them with the understanding that they haven't read all 2,000+ threads in this forum. Don't shun people, as DF has the potential to become a closed shop, and over-specialisation can be the death of anything.

[qwertyuiopas]

As I can see it, further optimization of the user created paths would be to convert it into a bunch of nodes where there are multiple paths crossing and then run a quick search along it for blockages.