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Author Topic: A simple question: why Urist "Mc"?  (Read 13736 times)

Urist Tilaturist

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A simple question: why Urist "Mc"?
« on: December 30, 2014, 01:23:08 pm »

Urist (dagger) is the generic dwarven name because of a story long ago of a mad dwarf called Urist who ran a fort all by herself and murdered all incoming migrants. I know that much. Since dwarven surnames are made of 2 random words, making dwarf names like "Urist Stupidsoldier" and "Urist Tantrumthrower" fits with the theme. But one part of this naming custom seems unrelated to anything in the game: the use of the term "Urist Mcdwarf" instead of "Urist Dwarf". Dwarven names do not start with "mc", nor do the random words translated (so Idenmat becomes Paddlebend, for example). Do dwarves all have very uninventive rap names which are only mentioned in discussions about them and not in the game itself? Have players decided that they are Scottish because of their love of alcohol and violence? Why has this happened?
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Naryar

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Re: A simple question: why Urist "Mc"?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2014, 01:32:18 pm »

Fantasy dwarves have been speaking in a Scottish accent since they appeared on film and video games. So "Mc".

xaritscin

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Re: A simple question: why Urist "Mc"?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2014, 01:40:03 pm »

Fantasy dwarves have been speaking in a Scottish accent since they appeared on film and video games. So "Mc".

this, is the best explanation so far.....
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: A simple question: why Urist "Mc"?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2014, 03:46:31 pm »

It is a reasonable association, given their alcoholic and violent tendencies, but I have never imagined my dwarvesas such.
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Remuthra

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Re: A simple question: why Urist "Mc"?
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2014, 03:49:40 pm »

I believe that, by canon, or at least by convention, dwarves have scottish accents, as can be seen in such things as the Soundsense engine.

Urist Tilaturist

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Re: A simple question: why Urist "Mc"?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2014, 04:03:42 pm »

Canon would mean that Toady has confirmed it, which I have not heard, but since I have only played since DF2012 I may have missed it.
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mifki

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Re: A simple question: why Urist "Mc"?
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2014, 05:37:16 pm »

Canon would mean that Toady has confirmed it, which I have not heard, but since I have only played since DF2012 I may have missed it.

It's not about DF dwarves but about dwarves in general. Of course Toady can say his dwarves are different, but why? So they're Scottish too. Googling for 'dwarves scottish' will show a lot of pages about this.

Aranador

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Re: A simple question: why Urist "Mc"?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2014, 08:51:56 pm »

fantasy dwarves having a Scottish accent is a common literary trope.  However I tend to roleplay dwarves in DnD as having german accents - because to heck with following the crowd :P
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Remuthra

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Re: A simple question: why Urist "Mc"?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2014, 09:10:48 pm »

If you don't follow the crowd, you won't be inside with the rest when the siege hits.

Magistrum

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Re: A simple question: why Urist "Mc"?
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2014, 01:11:39 pm »

I usually thought it was because they were naming professions.
Like, if they are referencing to a random dwarf as a description they usually do it the "right" way, name + twowords.
Tough when referencing to the dwarf's profession they use the "Mc" because the profession is a single word...
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: A simple question: why Urist "Mc"?
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2014, 01:30:10 pm »

Literary? Tolkien said that his dwarves were inspired by the Jews, if anybody, and he was the first major author to associate dwarves with mining and living underground. The legends which influenced Tolkien were mostly German, Nordic and Anglo Saxon, not Scottish.
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Taffer

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Re: A simple question: why Urist "Mc"?
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2014, 02:11:25 pm »

Literary? Tolkien said that his dwarves were inspired by the Jews, if anybody, and he was the first major author to associate dwarves with mining and living underground. The legends which influenced Tolkien were mostly German, Nordic and Anglo Saxon, not Scottish.

Dwarves were good smiths and many of them lived underground in later Norse mythology, which specifically describes them. [1] [2] [3]

From the Prose Edda:

Quote
In the later popular belief, the dwarfs are generally called the
subterraneans, the brown men in the moor, etc.
Quote
But the following are also dwarfs and dwell in the rocks, while the
above-named dwell in the mould:
Quote
Too late do you offer to make
peace with me, for now I have drawn the sword Dainsleif, which was
smithied by the dwarfs
, and must be the death of a man whenever it is
drawn; its blows never miss the mark, and the wounds made by it never
heal.

Unless you want to make the argument that many of them lived underground, were good smiths, yet imported all of their metal for mysterious reasons (rather than simply digging more). Interestingly, dwarven drink is also mentioned in the Prose Edda, suggesting that dwarven alcoholism isn't entirely a modern invention. The dwarves of later norse mythology in many ways greatly resemble our modern trope.

As for Tolkien, it seems that the only connection he ever explicitly stated was a linguistic one, although obvious analogies can be made in the specific case of The Hobbit. The source for people talking about Tolkien's dwarves and Judaism (just one paragraph in an interview):

Quote
I didn’t intend it, but when you’ve got these people on your hands, you’ve got to make them different, haven’t you?” said Tolkien during the 1971 interview. “The dwarves of course are quite obviously, wouldn’t you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic, obviously, constructed to be Semitic. The hobbits are just rustic English people.

He prefaces by saying that he didn't intend a connection, and then states that their words are Semitic. It's really a large stretch to take this paragraph and imply that Tolkien's dwarfs were "inspired by jews", especially given how similar to Norse dwarfs they are, and his prefacing sentence refuting this idea. Not to mention that the man "intensely disliked allegories", and took care to specifically refute most claims of allegorical inspiration in his works.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 02:36:30 pm by Taffer »
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: A simple question: why Urist "Mc"?
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2014, 02:14:40 pm »

Thinking about Norse myths it seems that Tolkien simply popularised the old legends, but the myths are still Norse and not Scottish. If anything those dwarves should speak with Nordic accents of some sort (most likely Norwegian, since there are more mountains there).
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vjmdhzgr

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Re: A simple question: why Urist "Mc"?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2014, 03:38:13 pm »

I usually thought it was because they were naming professions.
Like, if they are referencing to a random dwarf as a description they usually do it the "right" way, name + twowords.
Tough when referencing to the dwarf's profession they use the "Mc" because the profession is a single word...
This is what I thought too. Mc just being a way to preface a profession. Urist Miner relentlessly sound like a name does it?
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Man In Zero G

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Re: A simple question: why Urist "Mc"?
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2014, 06:27:13 pm »

OR
It could just be that Name McAdjective is a pretty common (and old) trope in TV, movies, video games, the entirety of the internet, etc. - where someone gets nicknamed as Firstname Mc(insert a descriptor here). (There's a tvtropes page about this.) (I won't link it because I love you.)
Seriously, have none of you watched any TV or movies in the past few decades?
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