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Author Topic: 2 questions  (Read 1224 times)

vassock

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2 questions
« on: December 26, 2014, 11:35:20 pm »

1. When dealing with FB/Titan/Circus building destroyers, can they destroy all-steel (magma-safe) upright spike traps?

2. In 40.23, are ballista weapons still laughably inaccurate/harmless against enemies? Or does the single tile hallway + ballista behind fortification work now?
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Arx

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Re: 2 questions
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2014, 05:08:15 am »

Material doesn't bother building destroyers. It's only artifat quality that'll help.

Ballistae are still inaccurate with poor operaters, but now deal slicing damage. I think I've seen a couple of reports of ballistae basically gibbing multiple goblins.
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Niddhoger

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Re: 2 questions
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2014, 09:53:41 am »

Material doesn't bother building destroyers. It's only artifat quality that'll help.

Ballistae are still inaccurate with poor operaters, but now deal slicing damage. I think I've seen a couple of reports of ballistae basically gibbing multiple goblins.

There are actually two classes of BD- the first can only destroy WOODEN buildings, so material value does matter to an extent.  However, the 2nd class of BD destroys everything but artifacts and constructions.

Ballistae have always been able to kill 2 creatures at once.  Back in .34 there were confirmed reports of ballistae killing two elephants with one shot.  They've always been able to smear a couple gobbos.  Ballistae have something like 100 tile range too.  Even when horribly innacurate, a single tile corridor only gives them one path.  If nothing else, having to run down that 100 tile range gives the balistae time to get a few shots in.  The problem is that you need 3 masterpiece siege parts to create your engine, and training on catapults is preferred (but much slower).  Catapults use junk (heavy) stone, but can be fired without a target.  Ballistae are much faster to get firing, but need wood and a target to shoot at.  I've heard retiring your (beefy) legendary miners into catapult loading duty helps speed up the learning process immensely. 
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Chaosegg

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Re: 2 questions
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2014, 12:51:17 pm »

I read that glass windows will get smashed by BD'ers... will they also smash things like floors made from glass blocks?

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Building_destroyer

the wiki page seems to imply that my glass-block-floors should be safe, but I wonder if anyone can confirm it in 40.19+
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Authority2

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Re: 2 questions
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2014, 12:58:48 pm »

Floors are constructions and thus indestructible.
There are actually two classes of BD- the first can only destroy WOODEN buildings, so material value does matter to an extent.  However, the 2nd class of BD destroys everything but artifacts and constructions.
Building destroyers also can't destroy bridges, in either position.
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Niddhoger

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Re: 2 questions
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2014, 02:26:39 pm »

Floors are constructions and thus indestructible.
There are actually two classes of BD- the first can only destroy WOODEN buildings, so material value does matter to an extent.  However, the 2nd class of BD destroys everything but artifacts and constructions.
Building destroyers also can't destroy bridges, in either position.

I never said bridges -of any material- are vulnerable.  However stone doors will stop cave crocs where wooden ones will not.  I keep forgetting that bridges are not a "construction" but are listed under the "building" menu.  To clarify, bridges are the only non-construction that is 100% immune to BD's of all kinds.  Since floors are a "construction" (built under b-C menu) they are immune. So glass windows get shattered by any form of BD, but glass walls (floors, hatches, bridges etc) are 100% immune to them.  Constructions even hold up against magma and dragonfire even if their material won't allow it (for the record, nethercap is the only material safe from dragonfire).  The closest a bridge can get to being "destroyed" is jammed open.  Bridges can't open/close when sufficiently large enemies try to cross them.  This includes all titans, forgotten beasts, presumably demons, probably zombie sperm whales... etc.  These don't DESTROY the bridge but instead keep it from closing.

To directly answer your question: yes, your glass floors are safe from BD's. 

Ironically, the same troll that tears right through an adamantium door like it isn't even there will be stopped by a wall of ash or soap.  The first is a "building" and the second is a "construction."  Bridges count as constructions though. 
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Arx

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Re: 2 questions
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2014, 03:20:37 pm »

Building destroyers can and will destroy floor hatches, exept from below unless that's been fixed.
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Aslandus

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Re: 2 questions
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2014, 05:42:32 pm »

I don't know if building destroyers can break traps (stone, weapon, cage, or spike), but they can't break constructions. Also, they probably can't break things that are actively killing them, so just keep your spike traps running and you won't have many BD problems...

Magistrum

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Re: 2 questions
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2014, 06:01:24 pm »

Adding to aslander post, building destroyers don't destroy traps nor levers of any material.
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Niddhoger

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Re: 2 questions
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2014, 10:16:39 pm »

*sigh* I need to stop posting when tired.  Stone hatches are immune to building destroyer 1 where wooden hatches aren't.  Your glass hatch would be safe from a cave croc but not a Troll (first is BD1, second is BD2).

And no, BD2 CANNOT destroy "constructions."  BUILT items (doors, statues, HATCHES) are fair game unless artifact.  CONSTRUCTIONS (b-C-_) like walls, floors, and (constructed) stairs are safe.  CONSTRUCTED items are considered apart of the natural terrain.  Trolls can't beat through natural stone walls: they cant' beat through constructed stone walls.  And once more bridges are also immune to BD of all types (but jam when a titan/FB stands on them). 
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Nikow

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Re: 2 questions
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2014, 02:38:12 pm »

*sigh* I need to stop posting when tired.  Stone hatches are immune to building destroyer 1 where wooden hatches aren't.  Your glass hatch would be safe from a cave croc but not a Troll (first is BD1, second is BD2).

And no, BD2 CANNOT destroy "constructions."  BUILT items (doors, statues, HATCHES) are fair game unless artifact.  CONSTRUCTIONS (b-C-_) like walls, floors, and (constructed) stairs are safe.  CONSTRUCTED items are considered apart of the natural terrain.  Trolls can't beat through natural stone walls: they cant' beat through constructed stone walls.  And once more bridges are also immune to BD of all types (but jam when a titan/FB stands on them).
This game is too complicated, because dragon fire WILL destroy bridge made from non-dragon-fire immune material. Whats about stone/wood bridge vs magma?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: 2 questions
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2014, 04:43:01 pm »

I've read that bridges made out of magma unsafe materials (even one item out of all it's made of, the including controlling mechanism(s) in the bridge itself) will be destroyed eventually if extended immediately on top of magma. I've witnessed myself that this happened to a bridge I foolishly created incorrectly when it was submerged in magma (didn't exist anymore when I tried to raise it). Dragon fire (and ordinary fire in the case of wood) can destroy bridges while extended, but presumably are just as invulnerable as e.g. a soap wall when raised, i.e. it's sort of converted into a construction for the duration. I suspect retracting bridges are invulnerable as well when retracted, but can't swear on it.
I've also read that trying to raise/lower a bridge on FBs, titans, and extremely large creatures (e.g. rutherers) will cause the bridge to deconstruct rather than jam, but have no first hand experience, so I won't say Noddhoger is wrong, just to check his statement (or ask for a definite confirmation from him).
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