Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[SixOfSpades]

The ability to climb is primarily determined by 4 things:
1) The surface to be climbed--whether it's rough stone (studded with lots of good hand/footholds), block walls (dwarves can climb these, so apparently they're using the mortared gaps between the bricks?), or loose soil/sand (should be too crumbly to climb, but somehow they do anyway). I'll skip this for now.
2) Physical attributes: The upper body strength to lift your weight (especially with 1 hand), the stamina to keep your grip, and not having massive slabs of fat pushing you away from the wall. I'll skip this, too.
3) Climber skill from previous attempts.
4) Equipment and load. Quite apart from the impossibility of scaling a stone wall while wearing full plate & a backpack full of lead bars, the ability to grasp holds should also be taken into account: A dwarf wearing silk gloves, or no hand coverings at all, can find & use handholds. A dwarf wearing thick leather mittens cannot. A dwarf wearing cloth shoes, or sandals, or socks, can find & use toeholds. A dwarf wearing boots, especially metal boots, can most likely not. What I would like to see is dwarves considering their equipped items before attempting to climb--in this way, players could effectively turn off their dwarves climbing for no reason by making & distributing clothes that discourage such behavior. Admittedly, this won't let you have some dwarves be climbers while the rest keep their feet on the ground (military uniforms excepted), but at least it's a start.

[wobbly]

2) Physical attributes: The upper body strength to lift your weight (especially with 1 hand), the stamina to keep your grip, and not having massive slabs of fat pushing you away from the wall. I'll skip this, too.

A couple of minor notes from someone who climbs a fair bit: While str is useful, balance & flexibility actually count a lot more. Also in most circumstances if your lifting with your upper body your doing it wrong ( an overhanging tree branch is an obvious exception), your legs are much much stronger. You step up with your legs rather then lift with your arms. In regards to fat pushing you away from the wall being fat certainly doesn't help, but you actually climb side on for just this kind of reason (you don't really want your arse hanging in space, you want your body pressed against the rock for friction).

[SixOfSpades]

. . . in most circumstances if your lifting with your upper body your doing it wrong . . . your legs are much much stronger.

As basically everyone is able to lift their own body weight with their legs, it's upper body strength that is the more reliable indicator.

In regards to fat pushing you away from the wall being fat certainly doesn't help, but you actually climb side on for just this kind of reason (you don't really want your arse hanging in space, you want your body pressed against the rock for friction).

I am among the legion of former tree-shinniers who heartily agree that friction is a good thing. But really, anything that separates your center of gravity from the rock face--be it slabs of fat or a metal breastplate--just applies all the wrong kinds of torque to your handholds.


So, I take it nobody out there has an opinion on clothing / armor having an effect on their dwarves deciding to go for a casual jaunt down the shaft of a volcano?

[wobbly]

. . . in most circumstances if your lifting with your upper body your doing it wrong . . . your legs are much much stronger.

As basically everyone is able to lift their own body weight with their legs, it's upper body strength that is the more reliable indicator.

If you think that then take a look at the gap between bricks & see just how much of your hand can actually grip it (& people climb on much smaller hand holds). I don't care how much upper body strength you have, fact is your never going to be able to lift much of your weight with your finger tips. You can only climb this sort of stuff because the bulk of your weight is shifted to the points of your toes. Anyways, it kinda irrelevent in both the fact that dwarf fortress doesn't divide upper/lower body strength & that your more interested in discussing the equipment side of things.

So, I take it nobody out there has an opinion on clothing / armor having an effect on their dwarves deciding to go for a casual jaunt down the shaft of a volcano?

I'd certainly like to see equipment weight factored in (if it isn't already). In terms of shoes/gloves:

1. Metal boots are an obvious issue - no flex & you want to be lifting at the heels to put your weight on your toes. Trouble is it's the opposite situation if your climbing in crampons (your better off with a rigid shoe).

2. Leather boots are actually going to be better for climbing then bare feet if they're shaped for climbing (similar concept to ballet shoes, they pinch at the toes & shift your weight forwards onto the points of the toe)

3. The silk gloves in your example have a problem too, in that they're a smooth material and are going to slide on rock.

4. Gloves/Gauntlets become far less relevant if you climb with an ice axe or equivalent for trees/rock.

Not deliberately trying to be argumentative, more pointing out that if your making it more complicated for realism it's actually going to get fairly complicated particularly if your using climbing gear or boots designed to climb in. And if you just want to stop dwarfs from climbing surely it makes more sense to just allow people to turn climbing off on a dwarf?

Edit: If your climbing in inappropriate shoes/gloves & carrying a backpack, why aren't you taking the things off??

[SixOfSpades]

. . . if your making it more complicated for realism it's actually going to get fairly complicated . . .

Hi there. Welcome to Dwarf Fortress.

1. Metal boots are an obvious issue - no flex & you want to be lifting at the heels to put your weight on your toes. Trouble is it's the opposite situation if your climbing in crampons (your better off with a rigid shoe).

Dutch wooden clogs--worst climbing shoe ever? On the other hand, wood-based sandals might be the very best DF climbing wear, as the hard, thin base would be great for wedging into crevices where not even a really good leather boot could find purchase.
I *do* want to add crampons (and snowshoes), and have dwarves wear them when appropriate, but that's largely a climate issue.

3. The silk gloves in your example have a problem too, in that they're a smooth material and are going to slide on rock.

You may be confusing silk with satin. Silk, being a filament, is naturally much smoother than twisted, kinky fibers like wool--but a large part of satin's low friction comes from the satin weaving pattern, not the silk from which it's made. But of course, a bare hand would be better than either, especially as dwarves don't mind not wearing gloves.

And if you just want to stop dwarfs from climbing surely it makes more sense to just allow people to turn climbing off on a dwarf?

Well, ideally, Toady would integrate automatic traffic restrictions on climbing, so a dwarf would rather walk 20 tiles over level ground than climb 2 tiles horizontally, or just 1 tile up or down. That way, only the most nimble youth--or thrill-seeking adult--would feel motivated to Spiderman up & down the canyon. The only problem is, that would still allow dwarves to practice Extreme Ironing while in full armor, hence my request to have dwarves check their garments before they wreck their garments.
An option in the INIT file, something like [CLIMBING:DISCOURAGED], would also be good, so that dwarves only use the ability in emergencies (or near-emergencies).

[Putnam]

Dwarves already do have pretty big hits to climbing paths, yeah.