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Author Topic: We need better military  (Read 2465 times)

We need better military
« on: December 24, 2014, 01:05:03 pm »

 Greetings fellow overlords.
 This isn't really a content suggestion in itself, but it's still pretty important.
 Military. We need better military, or rather a more developed one. Especially in a world like this one. I just feel that you don't have enough control over military operations, and instead just unleash a slurry of warriors on single targets rather than detailed formations and all. Not that I want DF to become a strategy battle game, but i think it's an area worthy of improvement.
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Or you could just let the children roam free and natural selection will take care of them.
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Putnam

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Re: We need better military
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2014, 12:37:57 am »

Planned. Were planned for 0.31.

Niddhoger

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Re: We need better military
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2014, 09:29:41 am »

Military

Dwarven armies
Ability to send out fortress dwarves to lead larger groups of surrounding dwarves out around mid-level maps (or just go alone)
Ability to send equipment and fortress dwarves out to train surrounding dwarves
Ability to attack sites and entity populations with your dwarven armies
Ability to set fires and select supplies to haul back when sacking a site

This is pulled from the DF Development page.  We are supposed to be much more active with our surrounding space.  I think you are talking more about complex orders and moving in formation, though.  The combat AI is still pretty simple, but maybe "March as group" would prevent the quicker/more nearby dwarves from suicide rushing the enemy.  Also "protect incapacitated/fallen comrades" might work too.
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Re: We need better military
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2014, 09:36:44 am »

 I do think we need better formations, but player controlled (at least a bit) rather than AI, especially when it comes to using intricate fortress designs the way the player intended it to.
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Or you could just let the children roam free and natural selection will take care of them.
I'm now picturing an elf wrestler trying to suplex my battlements.

brandominator

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Re: We need better military
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2014, 02:09:06 pm »

This game is about telling your dwarves what to do, not directly controlling them
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Witty

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Re: We need better military
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2014, 06:54:12 pm »

Toady has mentioned in previous DFtalks that he isn't against the idea to directly controlling individual dwarves in certain circumstances. Once in-fort taverns and tavern games become a thing, you'll supposedly have the ability to control a local dwarf to play some procedurally generated game with whomever. So stepping in to help the AI isn't completely out of the question.

On topic though, interacting with the outside world will become more viable once the player controlled fort starts producing neighboring hill and deep dwarf communities. At that point, you'll have nice groundwork to interact with these communities on some level that will naturally lead to more extensive off-site expeditions. But overhauling the current combat AI is a must first and foremost, along with the introduction of formations and orders beyond "stand here" and "kill this".
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Romegypt

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Re: We need better military
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2014, 09:00:01 pm »

Maybe eventually, the ability to send out your own expedition at any time, with things you have in your fort, and then the ability to switch between the two sites and control both and basically, the same time. I know, killer on processing and whatnot, but would be awesome nonetheless.
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Re: We need better military
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2014, 10:47:46 pm »

 Maybe a solution would be having a list of orders and formations (or maybe even the ability to create some!) and then ordering them to a squad, region and target/vague group of targets, similar to how a general would (in medieval times) give parts of a strategy to battalion leaders who would then have their fodder soldiers execute themselves in spectacularly gruesome ways it (also in spectacularly gruesome ways).
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dudlol

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Re: We need better military
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2014, 12:27:58 pm »

Seems to me something resembling FF12's gambit system (or the billion other games with similar systems) might be more in tune with dwarf fortress. As a previous poster said, the game is about telling your dwarves what to do, not directly controlling them. Game even runs on the most basic gambit setup already, Foe: Nearest Visible -> Attack. It'd obviously need to be more complex, but would allow you to 'train' dwarves to behave specific ways in combat. Perhaps discipline would be taken into account in the case that they simply ignore orders? The inverse of their discipline rolling against the leadership and discipline of their squad leader or something like that?

Bonus points for once you have your squad set up how you want it to operate you don't need to micromanage every fight. Controls like Foe: Range < ##1 tiles -> Retreat ##2 tiles would keep archers out of combat, Ally: Under Attack -> Defend Ally help keep your guys centralized and fighting similar targets. Those aren't actually from the game, just random examples with utility in this context.
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Re: We need better military
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2014, 02:05:32 pm »

 Yeah you could just give an attack plan and a vague group of targets/areas to defend and let squad leaders do the rest and then have them have different degrees of willingness to die fighting, as you said, although that already exists in the form of bravery, the leaders should be able to do summary executions and whatever to boost morale.
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Or you could just let the children roam free and natural selection will take care of them.
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dudlol

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Re: We need better military
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2014, 02:15:06 am »

Well... Obedience. Executing your own guys isn't always so good for morale.

Seems to me if summary executions became a thing they might apply a stacking buff that A. Raised discipline temporarily, and B. Prevented soldiers viewing the execution from fleeing for a short time based on their (buffed) discipline. The buff stacks would run in series, not parallel, with more stacks giving longer duration rather than increased effect. The no fear effect would not last nearly as long as the discipline buff, simply existing to help prevent squad leaders from going seppuku after executing their entire squads.
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Putnam

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Re: We need better military
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2014, 04:09:45 am »

Dude no.

Buff? Way too gamey, especially since it would be better for different personality'd dwarves to have different reactions (with ones of sufficient boldness/love of life to perhaps mutiny).

Besides that, summary execution doesn't seem a dwarven thing

Deboche

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Re: We need better military
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2014, 07:17:48 am »

This game is about telling your dwarves what to do, not directly controlling them

This isn't true, you can have quite a lot of control over individual dwarves assigning rooms and using burrows, even more so if they're in the military. A feature is planned where you take control of a dwarf while in fortress mode, like the possession spell in dungeon keeper.

That being said, I'd love it if military and social(discipline and leadership mostly) skills affected how dwarves go into battle, how they organize and fight and so on. I'd also like it if the architecture skill had a similar impact where you assign an area to build something and the dwarf comes up with the structure.
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Re: We need better military
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2014, 01:06:03 am »

This game is about telling your dwarves what to do, not directly controlling them

This isn't true, you can have quite a lot of control over individual dwarves assigning rooms and using burrows, even more so if they're in the military. A feature is planned where you take control of a dwarf while in fortress mode, like the possession spell in dungeon keeper.

That being said, I'd love it if military and social(discipline and leadership mostly) skills affected how dwarves go into battle, how they organize and fight and so on. I'd also like it if the architecture skill had a similar impact where you assign an area to build something and the dwarf comes up with the structure.

I like that last bit. A lot.

Well... Obedience. Executing your own guys isn't always so good for morale.

Seems to me if summary executions became a thing they might apply a stacking buff that A. Raised discipline temporarily, and B. Prevented soldiers viewing the execution from fleeing for a short time based on their (buffed) discipline. The buff stacks would run in series, not parallel, with more stacks giving longer duration rather than increased effect. The no fear effect would not last nearly as long as the discipline buff, simply existing to help prevent squad leaders from going seppuku after executing their entire squads.

I guess. Also brutal squad leaders could be ostracized from society, but appreciated by certain government figures depending on their level of care for other beings.
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Or you could just let the children roam free and natural selection will take care of them.
I'm now picturing an elf wrestler trying to suplex my battlements.

Putnam

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Re: We need better military
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2014, 01:17:30 am »

This game is about telling your dwarves what to do, not directly controlling them

This isn't true, you can have quite a lot of control over individual dwarves assigning rooms and using burrows, even more so if they're in the military. A feature is planned where you take control of a dwarf while in fortress mode, like the possession spell in dungeon keeper.

Source? Especially since the current plans include removing the labor screen entirely, removing that piece of control over your dwarves.
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