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[smeeprocket]

Yes I really prefer using the term kyriarchy, but it is less often understood.

[Sheo]

People seem to fail to grasp the concept of illegality.

Meth possession is hard to prove because the person has to be caught in the act.

In payment, you literally have evidence every end of the month.

Pay gaps are illegal and if you see one, denounce it. It is really as simple as that.

As for the studies - I'll admit they're interesting, to say the least. I think one thing that does remain is the image of women as hysterical or unreliable - something we'll hopefully slowly see a change in the way people think in the years to come, as they proceed. Worth noting those studies are also several years old.

And please, I respect all opinions, but don't try and use words like "mansplaining" - every single discussion in this universe can only be furthened by people with different opinions and experiences. Saying a man can't talk about female issues is like saying one cannot oppose the usage of nukes if he isn't a physicist.

It is overall a ridiculous concept and actual discrimination of one's words based on gender - as a bisexual that has been discriminated against, I don't try and pretend I'll someday have a life only surrounded by bisexuals around me so that all opinions match or at least resemble mine.

On the other hand - I think this is straying from topic a bit, at least regarding women in videogames. Do we have solid examples of pay gaps or discrimination in the industry?

As in, actually because of their gender, not aggravated by gender, as you may or may not think happened during the whole GG debacle.

snip

While a valid concept, it is also a silly one.

We simply have a culture that is only now adapting to social changes demanded years ago - of course some of our culture is still male-centric. At the same time, there's also issues like the fact men are arrested more often for the same crimes and face harsher times.

That's discrimination on gender too - does that mean there's a matriarchy, somewhat? No, it just means each person is a person, and some people are dicks.

Ironically enough the same argument is used by the neo-nazi crowd - "This Jewish CEOs did something evil, thus there's a Zionist conspiracy to try and manipulate capitalism."

I recommend moderation in any discussion - and pointing and shouting won't do anyone any good, specially if one blames the other group - wait, no, in your description, everyone that isn't on your side - as a perpetrator of a crime.

snip

+1

[wierd]

I often have a difficult time expressing my ideas to others, as to me they appear self-evident, but to others not so much.

Here it all is, out in the open:

I consider the very idea of "The patriarchy" to be intellectual balderdash.  The very language that smeep used, and I quote:

ease, mansplain to us womenfolk how we should act exactly like men, not get hired nor speak out about not getting hired for it, then when we DO get hired, get fired for not being feminine enough (since we are not allowed to be successful and feminine) or be feminine and get paid less (and rightly so, what with being all feminine.) Then we repeat this cycle over and over (though it all sounds very familiar by now, almost as if this has been done quite a bit already) without any of the pesky speaking out about it, or being "loud" and "disruptive" until the problem just fixes itself.

is designed to inflame, ridicule, and generally not consider any viewpoint but her own.

I consider myself more "Non-gendered" than I do "asexual male".  My physical possession of a penis means little to me.  I do not have a gender identity in the commonly ascribed sense.  Instead, I view myself as a person, and both men and women as people.

I see one group of people that culturally is very aggressive about making sure that its interests are protected, being made the boogeyman of another group, that culturally is compelled to be submissive.  I say that being submissive is the problem. They need to stand up for themselves like the other group does.

I get flamed for this.

[scrdest]

If you dont make the effort, you dont get the results.

If you dont study for your tests, you dont make the grades, you dont get the scholarship. I am sure there are plenty of people who would prefer to party instead of study. Do they deserve easy As?

Is the bias against women bullshit? Yes.  Is the bias real? Yes.  Will the bias go away on its own? FUCK NO. 

If you want it to change, you have to make it change.

You're saying that as if there's nothing being done, and no one is acting. Last I checked, Smeep has been doing a pretty good job about making change- she now has an entire group of people which includes some possibly small-scale game developers mentally aware of the issue in some regard.

Eh, what?

[smjjames]

I don't think that this argument hold water : a well known trick to pay all your workers less is to pay one half even worst than the other.
That's why they hired women and children in the first place : they could be payed less (back then it was an evidence)  and then further reduce the pay of the mens.
Institutionalised racism work the same way : it doesn't help white as much as it penalize blacks, and if don't properly ensure that the poorest whites will do anything to keep black done, even if it hurt their own condition.
It's a very old trick, Rome used a variation of that.

The problem of the pay gap is that it is multifactorial : men being simply more assersive on average (which isn't far fetched) could explain it alone in some cases. The fact that more women tend to choose to be with their childdren is also definitely a factor.  But a bia is probably at play too, bosses tend to be pretty old.

Using child labour is primarily because children can be paid less, and also that they can be controlled and intimidated easily, but that is not part of a conspiracy to cut men's wages. Those are already as low as they can be. Besides, if the whole population is enslaved, the slave driver might as well use them all.

Who were Rome discriminating against? Jews? Christians? They had a black emperor, Septimus Severus, so discrimination against blacks seems unlikely...

If women are being paid less than men for the same hours doing the same job, that has been illegal in the USA since 1963. It may be badly enforced, but it seems more likely that women may work in lower paid jobs, take time off to raise children and not be promoted by male bosses who promote people like them. If they lack confidence, that may also be a cause. It is a complex issue, and not one that can be solved easily by heavy handed laws.

If you are a US woman and are being paid less than a man for the same hours doing the same job, know your rights and press charges.

Not sure why you're bringing up ancient Rome here, it's a completely different culture and it's no secret that women in general (unless you happened to be the ruler of a nation or were quite wealthy, also varies from culture to culture) were discriminated against. Hell, they were relegated to the top viewing floors of the Coliseum.

[smjjames]

...there was some talk about game development somewhere in this thread, right? Or am I mixing up threads?

Yeah, there was, before this derail took off.

[Sheo]

...there was some talk about game development somewhere in this thread, right? Or am I mixing up threads?

As I said, this did stray a little off-topic - I think this would better fit "Calm and Collected progressive discussion" than here.

All in favor of moving this forward to another, game-related topic?

[smeeprocket]

I often have a difficult time expressing my ideas to others, as to me they appear self-evident, but to others not so much.

Here it all is, out in the open:

I consider the very idea of "The patriarchy" to be intellectual balderdash.  The very language that smeep used, and I quote:

ease, mansplain to us womenfolk how we should act exactly like men, not get hired nor speak out about not getting hired for it, then when we DO get hired, get fired for not being feminine enough (since we are not allowed to be successful and feminine) or be feminine and get paid less (and rightly so, what with being all feminine.) Then we repeat this cycle over and over (though it all sounds very familiar by now, almost as if this has been done quite a bit already) without any of the pesky speaking out about it, or being "loud" and "disruptive" until the problem just fixes itself.

is designed to inflame, ridicule, and generally not consider any viewpoint but her own.

I consider myself more "Non-gendered" than I do "asexual male".  My physical possession of a penis means little to me.  I do not have a gender identity in the commonly ascribed sense.  Instead, I view myself as a person, and both men and women as people.

I see one group of people that culturally is very aggressive about making sure that its interests are protected, being made the boogeyman of another group, that culturally is compelled to be submissive.  I say that being submissive is the problem. They need to stand up for themselves like the other group does.

I get flamed for this.

I'd say your entire opinion is unfounded and offensive.

Literally the entire history of everything ever says that is not how equality is achieved.

There are in fact, Sheo, statistics linked a few times in this thread that the pay gap exists. Stop pretending like it doesn't when the evidence is right in your face. That is ridiculous.

There is nothing wrong with femininity or masculinity. People have the right to be more of less of either as they wish, this should be obvious to you as someone who professes to be gender neutral and asexual.

The kyriarchy says femininity and being a woman have to go hand in hand and that both are inherently inferior.

As I said, as an oppressed party, you can not just fight your way out of the hole on your own. You do not have the power to do that. And when you do, as we have seen from your own words, people will complain that you are "Whining" and expecting a handout.

I am at the maximum level possible in this forum of fighting for my struggle. I am bringing attention to the problem and saying "Look here, everyone, this is wrong and it should stop. We should agree to not do this anymore." and you are telling me that I am whining and I should quietly suffer more to achieve, in some magical way, the things that the oppressors get by virtue of genetic lottery.

[wierd]

They would have to be under a rock to not know about the bias in pay between males and females. It's a very well known issue, I'd say on par in exposure to the "Pro life VS Pro choice" controversy.

Unlike that latter one, which is rife with religious implication, and philosophically difficult snares, the pay relation issue is pretty cut and dried.

Industry does it, because they get away with it.  They get away with it, because culture is OK with it.  To make it so they cant get away with it, culture has to change.  The only way culture changes, is when people reject the old culture.

The popular position must be "No, that is unacceptable, what are you thinking?!"

If at any point there is "Ok, maybe this time" in the mix, the powers that be (a better term than patriarchy or kyriarchy, IMO) will wrangle and argue about how "This time" is "OK".  It does not matter what gender, gender identity, race, ethnicity, or country of origin you are from.

[smjjames]

Could we nudge the discussion back towards gaming somehow? I don't have a problem with the current derail as a topic, just trying to re-rail this.

Edit: You know, seems like a back and forth argument between wierd and smeeprocket atm.

[smeeprocket]

They would have to be under a rock to not know about the bias in pay between males and females. It's a very well known issue, I'd say on par in exposure to the "Pro life VS Pro choice" controversy.

Unlike that latter one, which is rife with religious implication, and philosophically difficult snares, the pay relation issue is pretty cut and dried.

Industry does it, because they get away with it.  They get away with it, because culture is OK with it.  To make it so they cant get away with it, culture has to change.  The only way culture changes, is when people reject the old culture.

The popular position must be "No, that is unacceptable, what are you thinking?!"

If at any point there is "Ok, maybe this time" in the mix, the powers that be (a better term than patriarchy or kyriarchy, IMO) will wrangle and argue about how "This time" is "OK".  It does not matter what gender, gender identity, race, ethnicity, or country of origin you are from.

I'm not sure of the point you were making in this post.

Kyriarchy is the best term, it encompasses all the issues at hand. Though the focus here is on the oppression of women. It is true though, that even in gender, oppression is not at all equal. A middle class white woman is not going to be oppressed in the way that a trans WoC is going to be oppressed.

The problem we are having with regards to keeping this thread on gaming is that to admit there is sexism and inequality in gaming, we have to admit to the existence of sexism and inequality in general, and find the oppressors culpable for it.

This is hitting a road block.

I feel like there is no foundation, we are building on quicksand.

[Phmcw]

The oppressed don't generally just unoppress themselves. Otherwise, we would already be equal. We are already pulling our weight, and frankly, a lot of yours as well.

Slaves didn't just snap their finger and become free, white people had to stop enslaving them. You are clearly confused as to who holds the power here.

Furthermore, the public at large just doesn't care about the plight of women. This negative factor that is supposed to put down the oppressors doesn't exist. The negativity is directed towards feminism.

You have a very distorted concept of reality.

You have a very distorted vision of reality, I'm afraid.
The system benefits rich peoples in a way, but it's more complicated than that.

The system exist because it can, that's the fundamental truth. It doesn't exist for something it's the product of the action of everyone.
Marx showed that the powerstructures of his time were designed to profit a very reduced number of peoples : those who control the capital and those who control the country, namely the empror in his case.

Now the patriarchy is the result of the fact that those who take decisions were, and still are in some proportion, mostly males.

Of course that's where privilege theory muddy everything. Men used to hold power publicly, while the woman hold power over the house. That mean that in the working class, there were advantages and disadvantages to both condition. Things were worst back then, but basically men's life were shorter and more violent. A lot of them died violent death, the hardest, most dangrerous jobs were for them... A miner's wife life depended on her husband, a miner's life sucked.

But the rulers where mostly men, the power in the Church were mostly men, and the power in education was also men's, hence a patriarchy. Every group in power hoarded it and refused outsiders if possible, and women were always outsiders.

But was power a "male privilege"? No! It's something you had to be male to hold, but most males didn't. The miners I spoke of were worst of than their wifes. The soldiers were worst off than their wife. Even the nobles often had to go to dangerous and harsh campains. As for the women's situation, their right fluctued.
It's no secret that Ctherine 2 and Victoria were among the most powerfull human being to ever exist, that high ranking Nuns could have power that rivaled those of owerfull nobles, or that when the men were gones, the women inherited the villages.

But that was the older times, so what about now?

Well now the power in America lie with those who have money, and it's the same in the rest of the world. The old patriarchal structure still hold on a bit of power, and some meme take time to die, but no matter if you're a man or a woman, if you have money, you have power.
If peoples realize that the game is skewed, they'll protest, and they may even start to do something.

So you have to divide the opposition : race baiting, gender baiting, religion baiting, ... the aim is to distract you from the actual powerstructure. Feminism is disliked because it accused the opressed of oppression. You are being exploited and know that the system deosn't cather to you as a non rich white male, so you aren't going to take responsability for something you have no power over, and that's a good thing. 

[smjjames]

Maybe redefine the thread topic somewhat? Like make it more broad or something?

Also, this derail is going deep into the topic for the progressive discussion thread. I think, I dunno.

Another thing I'm noticing is that the topic pretty much revolves around FPS games like Halo, Mass Effect, and others, maybe because that's where smeeprocket has more experience in since that's what she plays, but we're pretty much ignoring every other genre.

[palsch]

We simply have a culture that is only now adapting to social changes demanded years ago - of course some of our culture is still male-centric. At the same time, there's also issues like the fact men are arrested more often for the same crimes and face harsher times.

That's discrimination on gender too - does that mean there's a matriarchy, somewhat? No, it just means each person is a person, and some people are dicks.

Well no, generally that sort of discrimination arises from patriarchal assumptions of masculine/feminine behaviours.

Men are viewed as violent, aggressive, tougher, etc. These things are viewed, by general society, as positive traits usually rewarded. This backfires in some areas, particularly when a man is disadvantaged in another dimension (think race/poverty/class/religion). That is, patriarchy hurts men too.

Ironically enough the same argument is used by the neo-nazi crowd - "This Jewish CEOs did something evil, thus there's a Zionist conspiracy to try and manipulate capitalism."

I recommend moderation in any discussion - and pointing and shouting won't do anyone any good, specially if one blames the other group - wait, no, in your description, everyone that isn't on your side - as a perpetrator of a crime

Erm, crime? No. But patriarchal assumptions and structures are the default in our society still. 'Feminine' traits are overwhelmingly seen as more negative than 'masculine' ones. Men have systemic advantages in many areas of society and especially those with the greatest power, in part because of the perceptions of those traits and the assumptions that go along with them.

Which is to say that the default state of someone living in such a culture, as we all do, is mildly sexist. You can only get around that with concious awareness of such things.

For example, there was a study that found discussing female politician's appearance reduced the likelyhood of people to vote for her. That included complimenting her appearance. It was a fairly strong effect and across the board (although more focused in certain areas). There were two ways they found to combat this;

1) Media guidelines to encourage avoiding bringing up appearance at all when discussing female candidates.
2) Have the female candidate directly confront the issue and denounce judging women by their appearance.

That is, fairly normal, even positive behaviour when talking about a woman can cause direct harm and amplify sexist views among others. Only by being aware and changing such behaviour, or directly attacking and condemning such views can you avoid this. Passively accepting the norm is to be influenced by it or end up reinforcing it by accident.


To tie that back into game development... well, all this is directly related to depictions of women in gaming. People carry the same assumptions and views into gaming as they do other parts of their life. They flavour how they view female characters and influence how they are depicted by developers. It narrows the acceptable roles for them and often results in marginalisation if there isn't concious effort to go against industry and social norms in those depictions.

[Sheo]

I'd rather not lose a topic because we really like rambling on about this. Make a new one about feminism in general should you want to.

Also: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1308508/Gender-pay-gap-U-S-reversed-young-women.html this is my "evidence" to the reversed gender gap theory, since someone asked.

There's better ones with actual sources like this http://www.aei.org/publication/equal-pay-day-for-young-single-men-to-recognize-the-gender-pay-gap-in-favor-of-young-single-childless-women/ but that one's the original.

On game topics, something that we should discuss to ease our heads a bit:

Do you think having a character be physically weak instantly says she's helpless?

As in, do you think not having biological strength hurts a female character on-screen representation wise.