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[smeeprocket]

Calling women a "minority" because they're (supposedly) disenfranchised is just wrong, sorry...  There are a lot of cases where a minority oppresses others.  The whites in South Africa, for example.  Or the 1% here in America.  Minority groups due tend to suffer oppression but it's not a synonym for being oppressed.

Statistically, that is not how it plays out. As in, if you retaliate against your abuser, you go to jail for longer. You will serve longer prison sentences for hurting a stranger than your wife or girlfriend. there is a 3% conviction rate on rape. Domestic violence conviction rates are abysmally low.

http://cjr.sagepub.com/content/34/1/44.abstract

Did you quote the wrong paper?  That one seems to be attempting to refute your point:

Our review of 135 English language studies leads us to challenge the widely accepted notion that prosecution and conviction for this offense are infrequent. There is great variability in the reported rates of prosecution and conviction for intimate partner violence. These studies report that, on average, about one third of the reported offenses and more than three fifths of arrests result in the filing of charges; more than half of all prosecutions result in a criminal conviction.

no you are using minority different than rights groups use it. Like I said, it is not numerically based, it is power based.

You're saying those numbers are good?

http://www.solidarity-us.org/site/node/729

[Caz]

you are also putting words in my mouth, I never said those cases don't matter. I am saying they are significantly less common and not the kind of epidemic violence against women is.

What's the cutoff point for the idea you're proposing? At what level of reported violence do men magically meet the criteria that it would be irresponsible to allow games that had violence against them? The exact same thing happens to both genders, but apparently only women should be protected from the depiction in video games? It doesn't make sense.

[Caz]

I'm saying that if a woman hits a man, he can shrug it off, but he will break her face.

This comparison is kinda useless. As soon as you put any kind of weapon into the situation, the difference levels out.

[Reelya]

But good research says male victim sexual crimes are a lot more common than previously thought, and women are responsible for many of them.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html

Last year the National Crime Victimization Survey turned up a remarkable statistic. In asking 40,000 households about rape and sexual violence, the survey uncovered that 38 percent of incidents were against men.

That survey is from the Beareau of Justice. The statistic is a big rise, and some put it down to highly publicized cases in recent years of sexual abuse against boys/men, which has encouraged others to admit to being abused. You might say "oh but the abusers were almost all men". That's not the case, 46% of those were abuse by women.

2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, for which the Centers for Disease Control invented a category of sexual violence called “being made to penetrate.” This definition includes victims who were forced to penetrate someone else with their own body parts, either by physical force or coercion, or when the victim was drunk or high or otherwise unable to consent. When those cases were taken into account, the rates of nonconsensual sexual contact basically equalized, with 1.270 million women and 1.267 million men claiming to be victims of sexual violence.

A recent analysis of BJS data, for example, turned up that 46 percent of male victims reported a female perpetrator.

The final outrage in Stemple and Meyer’s paper involves inmates, who aren’t counted in the general statistics at all. In the last few years, the BJS did two studies in adult prisons, jails, and juvenile facilities. The surveys were excellent because they afforded lots of privacy and asked questions using very specific, informal, and graphic language. (“Did another inmate use physical force to make you give or receive a blow job?”) Those surveys turned up the opposite of what we generally think is true. Women were more likely to be abused by fellow female inmates, and men by guards, and many of those guards were female. For example, of juveniles reporting staff sexual misconduct, 89 percent were boys reporting abuse by a female staff member. In total, inmates reported an astronomical 900,000 incidents of sexual abuse.

Apparently women with power positions often abuse boys under their control. Is this patriarchy at work? Or is it inherent in power relations in general? Presumably they put those women in charge under the belief that women wouldn't do that, so they have low amounts of scrutiny compared to what they provide for male guards. The belief that women don't rape contributes to 89% of cases of juvenile inmate sexual abuse.

[smeeprocket]

you are also putting words in my mouth, I never said those cases don't matter. I am saying they are significantly less common and not the kind of epidemic violence against women is.

What's the cutoff point for the idea you're proposing? At what level of reported violence do men magically meet the criteria that it would be irresponsible to allow games that had violence against them? The exact same thing happens to both genders, but apparently only women should be protected from the depiction in video games? It doesn't make sense.

You are being obtuse again. There is no magic cutoff point. There's no specific line. The point is, the number is pretty low compared to female numbers, the punishments for women are significantly higher, and women are targeted specifically for their gender. Women are physically weaker, and honestly, I do wish that wasn't the case. Because I am constantly reminded of it every time I enter a discussion about equality. I have to assure the men in the thread that yes they are physically stronger, they are different in that way, before I can address the actual issues.

But if I get in a fight with my boyfriend, yes, he is going to fuck me up, and it isn't going to ever be the other way around unless I have significant combat training or a weapon. That is a reality that needs to be taken into consideration with regards to violence and is an issue in our society.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Sorry, then those particular rights groups (please name them, because they don't all do this) are using it wrong. Minority just means smaller numbers, hence terms like "minority rule" and "minority government" where a few people of a certain sort rule everybody. "America is governed mostly by a rich minority" is a valid statement, but not if people insist on using weird definitions of the word.

Women have not been disenfranchised in the USA for nearly 100 years. Disenfranchised means they cannot vote. People have agreed that words mean certain things. Using them to mean other things confuses everybody.

As for middle eastern countries having female leaders, the only ones that have are Israel and Turkey, considered the most developed and least sexist partly because of their Occidental influences (Ataturk made huge efforts to make Turkey more European, while Israel was founded by US and European Jews). As for North America, Canada has already had a female leader. Again, generalising is bad. Turkey and Israel are not the worst middle eastern states that people here are complaining about. They are likely thinking of states like Saudi Arabia which have certainly not had female leaders.

If you think a weedy man could get punched in the face by a female Olympic boxer and shake it off, you are daft. Generalisations are BAD. Please learn this. Men are stronger than women on average because they are bigger on average and do not give birth, so have more space for skeletal muscle. Their shoulders are also usually broader. These are only general rules, and a bigger woman will often be stronger than a smaller man.

[Caz]

You are being obtuse again. There is no magic cutoff point. There's no specific line. The point is, the number is pretty low compared to female numbers,

Not as low as you'd think. Still not seeing how less of a thing happening makes it less important.

the punishments for women are significantly higher,

What?

and women are targeted specifically for their gender.

So are men. That's the story of every street fight in the history of the world - "this guy pissed me off, we will fite!" comparatively, this hardly happens man vs woman, especially because men are socialised not to start violence against women.

Women are physically weaker, and honestly, I do wish that wasn't the case. Because I am constantly reminded of it every time I enter a discussion about equality. I have to assure the men in the thread that yes they are physically stronger, they are different in that way, before I can address the actual issues.

On average. It's not an absolute.

[Virtz]

Look, I am not lauding female violence against men, don't be silly.

I'm saying that if a woman hits a man, he can shrug it off, but he will break her face. It's like saying depicting violence against children is okay because depicting violence against adults is okay. When the person involved is physically weaker, violence against them is bad.

And as for women getting celebrated for hurting men, I refer back to my statement that women spend much longer in jail for retaliating against their abusers than the abuser will spend for hurting them. SO this is not the case, at all.

So if some game depicts violence against goblins, that's also bad? How about hobbits? They're physically weaker than humans. Or what if you're like that douchebag Kratos in God of War and you're killing considerably weaker men? Does that promote real-life violence against physically weaker beings?

I think this is as irrational as the video game violence hysteria from the 90s. The degenerates who carry out this sort of violence have little contact with media that'd "promote" this sort of behaviour, yet we're still using the same old debunked argument?


Also, on the subject of bringing up studies, a golden rule of scientific studies is that if you go into it seeking something, then you will find it, regardless of whether it's there or not. So it's best to take ideology-driven studies with a bag of salt. Read up how they picked their sample, where they got their data, what sort of survey questions they asked, etc., cause it's easy to put a bias into your studies when you want to prove something.

[smeeprocket]

But good research says male victim sexual crimes are a lot more common than previously thought, and women are responsible for many of them.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html

Last year the National Crime Victimization Survey turned up a remarkable statistic. In asking 40,000 households about rape and sexual violence, the survey uncovered that 38 percent of incidents were against men.

That survey is from the Beareau of Justice. The statistic is a big rise, and some put it down to highly publicized cases in recent years of sexual abuse against boys/men, which has encouraged others to admit to being abused.

2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, for which the Centers for Disease Control invented a category of sexual violence called “being made to penetrate.” This definition includes victims who were forced to penetrate someone else with their own body parts, either by physical force or coercion, or when the victim was drunk or high or otherwise unable to consent. When those cases were taken into account, the rates of nonconsensual sexual contact basically equalized, with 1.270 million women and 1.267 million men claiming to be victims of sexual violence.

A recent analysis of BJS data, for example, turned up that 46 percent of male victims reported a female perpetrator.

The final outrage in Stemple and Meyer’s paper involves inmates, who aren’t counted in the general statistics at all. In the last few years, the BJS did two studies in adult prisons, jails, and juvenile facilities. The surveys were excellent because they afforded lots of privacy and asked questions using very specific, informal, and graphic language. (“Did another inmate use physical force to make you give or receive a blow job?”) Those surveys turned up the opposite of what we generally think is true. Women were more likely to be abused by fellow female inmates, and men by guards, and many of those guards were female. For example, of juveniles reporting staff sexual misconduct, 89 percent were boys reporting abuse by a female staff member. In total, inmates reported an astronomical 900,000 incidents of sexual abuse.

Apparently women with power positions often abuse boys under their control. Is this patriarchy at work? Or is it inherent in power relations in general? Presumably they put those women in charge under the belief that women wouldn't do that, so they have low amounts of scrutiny compared to what they provide for male guards. The belief that women don't rape contributes to 89% of cases of juvenile inmate sexual abuse.

Nobody puts women in charge because they think women won't do that. That is never considered. This is frustrating because you are trying to pigeon hole me into saying something I'm not actually saying. I'm not saying that the rape and assault of boys and men isn't an issue. I'm not saying that more men and boys are not coming out about it. I do not want to silence those voices. If anything, that violence is trivialized in an entirely different way by the patriarchy.

Instead of discussing the point of the topic, you are putting me on the defensive and keeping us from actually confronting the issues. Rape of men and boys, by men and women is an entirely different thread, in which I will champion the cause of those men and boys. But violence against women is still a larger problem, it is normalized and trivial, women are punished overwhelmingly for defending themselves against this violence. Women are physically weaker than men. There's like a billion reasons to not further normalize violence against women. None of which involve me being okay with men and boys being raped by men OR women.

[smeeprocket]

Look, I am not lauding female violence against men, don't be silly.

I'm saying that if a woman hits a man, he can shrug it off, but he will break her face. It's like saying depicting violence against children is okay because depicting violence against adults is okay. When the person involved is physically weaker, violence against them is bad.

And as for women getting celebrated for hurting men, I refer back to my statement that women spend much longer in jail for retaliating against their abusers than the abuser will spend for hurting them. SO this is not the case, at all.

So if some game depicts violence against goblins, that's also bad? How about hobbits? They're physically weaker than humans. Or what if you're like that douchebag Kratos in God of War and you're killing considerably weaker men? Does that promote real-life violence against physically weaker beings?

I think this is as irrational as the video game violence hysteria from the 90s. The degenerates who carry out this sort of violence have little contact with media that'd "promote" this sort of behaviour, yet we're still using the same old debunked argument?


Also, on the subject of bringing up studies, a golden rule of scientific studies is that if you go into it seeking something, then you will find it, regardless of whether it's there or not. So it's best to take ideology-driven studies with a bag of salt. Read up how they picked their sample, where they got their data, what sort of survey questions they asked, etc., cause it's easy to put a bias into your studies when you want to prove something.

those are imaginary creatures. DO you feel women are imaginary?

[Urist Tilaturist]

The silliest thing about the video game violence controversy was that violent crime in the USA dropped throughout the 1990s.

Weaker men are not imaginary creatures. Read the whole post.

[Reelya]

Women will get a harsher sentence than the man if they kill their abuser - but that is murder, and murder is a higher crime than assault. For comparable crimes women always get more lenient sentences.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html

Men Sentenced To Longer Prison Terms Than Women For Same Crimes, Study Says

A new study by Sonja Starr, an assistant law professor at the University of Michigan, found that men are given much higher sentences than women convicted of the same crimes in federal court.

The study found that men receive sentences that are 63 percent higher, on average, than their female counterparts.

Starr also found that females arrested for a crime are also significantly more likely to avoid charges and convictions entirely, and twice as likely to avoid incarceration if convicted.

People who try and tell you that the law comes down harder on women are not being straight with you, smeeprocket. There is no evidence for an anti-woman bias in the court system, quite the opposite.

[smeeprocket]

The silliest thing about the video game violence controversy was that violent crime in the USA dropped throughout the 1990s.

Weaker men are not imaginary creatures. Read the whole post.

I did read the post. It's still not the same thing for the many other reasons I mentioned. The power structure in place supports men over women. Having an oppressor beat the hell out of the oppressed isn't okay. Like I said, you wouldn't show excessive violence against children, because they are physically weaker.

That said, I have not played God of War.

[smeeprocket]

Women will get a harsher sentence than the man if they kill their abuser - but that is murder, and murder is a higher crime than assault. For comparable crimes women always get more lenient sentences.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html

Men Sentenced To Longer Prison Terms Than Women For Same Crimes, Study Says

A new study by Sonja Starr, an assistant law professor at the University of Michigan, found that men are given much higher sentences than women convicted of the same crimes in federal court.

The study found that men receive sentences that are 63 percent higher, on average, than their female counterparts.

Starr also found that females arrested for a crime are also significantly more likely to avoid charges and convictions entirely, and twice as likely to avoid incarceration if convicted.

People who try and tell you that the law comes down harder on women are not being straight with you, smeeprocket. There is no evidence for an anti-woman bias in the court system, quite the opposite.

I can't find links to sources on there at all. And I've linked an article with sources otherwise. Mine includes retaliation, not just murder, as well as murder on the abuser's side (that happens a lot, it's not like they always stop at beatings.)

edit: this wasn't even talking about domestic violence. BTW have you ever heard of equal sentencing?

http://www.wcl.american.edu/journal/genderlaw/06/alexander.pdf

(god that is such a long source)

[Urist Tilaturist]

I would show excessive violence against children. War is hell, and will not be censored. What do you think turned public opinion against the Viet Nam war? Besides, DF includes savage violence against children, so why are you playing it if you find portrayals of it so horrific?

Whoever is smashing somebody is the oppressor at the time. That is how oppression works.

There are links to sources on there, including academic papers. Your browser must not be working properly.