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Author Topic: Females in Games? Thread  (Read 166936 times)

AlleeCat

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1170 on: December 28, 2014, 07:36:10 am »

I'll just bang in about this jabba and leia thing...

Jabba put Leia in a metal bikini because it was pleasing to him, and possibly because it was degrading to Leia (maybe he's a sadist ?). The outfit fits the story, therefore the "this scene is sexist" ain't a problem. This whole scene is made to show Jabba is, simply put, an asshole.

Hell this ain't even a damsel-in-distress scene because Leia ends up strangling Jabba with her chains, which is extra ironic and awesome.

Of course there's the thing of this scene being fanservice to certain people, but that's not important. The fanservice is minor, it's not like the cameraman goes "hey i'm going to zoom on her butt and breasts and naked skin for a while just for fanservice's sake"

Besides, It's not like Leia is a fragile damsel in distress instead of a sarcastic blaster-toting badass princess.
I noticed nobody points out the scene in A New Hope when the male protagonists are breaking Leia out of the Death Star and shooting at Storm Troopers from behind cover, missing pretty much every shot. Leia grabs a gun from their hands and takes out two with two shots.

Reelya

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1171 on: December 28, 2014, 08:18:00 am »

Her character could be seen as a subversion of the Damsel trope, she got captured while trying to rescue a damselled dude, and ended up taking out the captor herself.

smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1172 on: December 28, 2014, 08:24:40 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You guys are obsessed with the Star Wars example, which is a half derail, and you completely missed this incredible post. Respond to this, don't ignore it.

I feel like Glowcat should be doing all the debating on my side, they are making some great points.
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Glowcat

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1173 on: December 28, 2014, 08:31:15 am »

Umm, thanks, though I don't think I could handle debating these threads full time.

If I don't distance myself from some of the more frustrating posts it's harder to keep a clear head, especially combined with real-life emotionally destabilizing situations when they pop up.
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Helgoland

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1174 on: December 28, 2014, 08:33:32 am »

PTW.
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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1175 on: December 28, 2014, 09:43:24 am »

Umm, thanks, though I don't think I could handle debating these threads full time.

If I don't distance myself from some of the more frustrating posts it's harder to keep a clear head, especially combined with real-life emotionally destabilizing situations when they pop up.

yea, I'm not sure if it is as exhausting for the other side, since we are arguing for representation, men already have that.

I think you are right that there needs to not be one image of what the power fantasy or more specifically the heroine, hero is. Diversity is far more inclusive.
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Caz

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1176 on: December 28, 2014, 10:01:11 am »

yea, I'm not sure if it is as exhausting for the other side, since we are arguing for representation, men already have that.

Women pretty much already have fair representation in gaming. You're fighting over a few loose straws on either side of the pile.
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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1177 on: December 28, 2014, 10:03:33 am »

yea, I'm not sure if it is as exhausting for the other side, since we are arguing for representation, men already have that.

Women pretty much already have fair representation in gaming. You're fighting over a few loose straws on either side of the pile.

yea that's one of the obtuse, frustrating posts.

"This is a problem" "Nope, everything is perfectly fine, nothing to see here" "let me show you all the examples of this problem" "what problem? there is no problem"

It's rather insulting.
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Phmcw

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1178 on: December 28, 2014, 10:20:14 am »

yea, I'm not sure if it is as exhausting for the other side, since we are arguing for representation, men already have that.

Women pretty much already have fair representation in gaming. You're fighting over a few loose straws on either side of the pile.

In that I don't agree : Women could be represented a lot more and a lot more accurately in games and the games that'd do it would be very well recieved by gamers.

That being said, it's all baby steps in this industry : fatherhood is only beginning to be used those last few years as a senaristic tool, so...


One point that worry me a lot more, though, is that it's almost impossible to see any non negative representation of transexuals in games. Even a neutral one would be a step up. 
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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1179 on: December 28, 2014, 10:53:53 am »

yea, I'm not sure if it is as exhausting for the other side, since we are arguing for representation, men already have that.

Women pretty much already have fair representation in gaming. You're fighting over a few loose straws on either side of the pile.

In that I don't agree : Women could be represented a lot more and a lot more accurately in games and the games that'd do it would be very well recieved by gamers.

That being said, it's all baby steps in this industry : fatherhood is only beginning to be used those last few years as a senaristic tool, so...


One point that worry me a lot more, though, is that it's almost impossible to see any non negative representation of transexuals in games. Even a neutral one would be a step up.

yes! 100%

That's an entirely different topic that deserves it's own thread, but that, considering the posts in some of the other trans related threads I've made, I would be very scared to make.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1180 on: December 28, 2014, 10:54:44 am »

When have you seen a negative portrayal of a transsexual in a game? One of the prostitutes in GTA 5 is transsexual, but the also transsexual voice actor portraying her does not think it is negative. Portrayals of transsexuals at all are very few, but there is always a chance that a character is one and the player simply does not notice.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1181 on: December 28, 2014, 10:55:20 am »

yea, I'm not sure if it is as exhausting for the other side, since we are arguing for representation, men already have that.

Women pretty much already have fair representation in gaming. You're fighting over a few loose straws on either side of the pile.

yea that's one of the obtuse, frustrating posts.

"This is a problem" "Nope, everything is perfectly fine, nothing to see here" "let me show you all the examples of this problem" "what problem? there is no problem"

It's rather insulting.
"I don't see the thing you're talking about in these examples." "Well, that's cause you're a man, you can't make the judgement. Also, there's no such thing as sexism against men."

Yes, it's frustrating when people don't immediately agree with your questionable views. And I say this as someone who would agree that women are under-represented in video games.

Although I'd say they're more under-represented in negative roles than positive ones. It's not uncommon for a game to feature female protagonists, or at least female supporting cast members, but have all the generic enemies be male. Pretty much the only modern ones with female generic enemies I can think of are ones that feature create-a-characters, though even there the ratios are usually skewed to feature more male adversaries.

I'd also be a proponent of more strong and less sexualized female protagonists. More Brienne of Tarth, less Lara Croft. Like unless there's magic or futuristic technology to even out physical differences, I find a strong protagonist more believable in a violent scenario, regardless of gender. And that's why I strongly dislike anime games with teenage protagonists. I'm not buying for a second that these lanky twerps can do things adults failed at.
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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1182 on: December 28, 2014, 10:57:22 am »

yea, I'm not sure if it is as exhausting for the other side, since we are arguing for representation, men already have that.

Women pretty much already have fair representation in gaming. You're fighting over a few loose straws on either side of the pile.

yea that's one of the obtuse, frustrating posts.

"This is a problem" "Nope, everything is perfectly fine, nothing to see here" "let me show you all the examples of this problem" "what problem? there is no problem"

It's rather insulting.
"I don't see the thing you're talking about in these examples." "Well, that's cause you're a man, you can't make the judgement. Also, there's no such thing as sexism against men."

Yes, it's frustrating when people don't immediately agree with your questionable views. And I say this as someone who would agree that women are under-represented in video games.

Although I'd say they're more under-represented in negative roles than positive ones. It's not uncommon for a game to feature female protagonists, or at least female supporting cast members, but have all the generic enemies be male. Pretty much the only modern ones with female generic enemies I can think of are ones that feature create-a-characters, though even there the ratios are usually skewed to feature more male adversaries.

I'd also be a proponent of more strong and less sexualized female protagonists. More Brienne of Tarth, less Lara Croft. Like unless there's magic or futuristic technology to even out physical differences, I find a strong protagonist more believable in a violent scenario, regardless of gender. And that's why I strongly dislike anime games with teenage protagonists. I'm not buying for a second that these lanky twerps can do things adults failed at.

I've already linked the gender disparity in games twice now, you are wrong. there are very few female protagonists.

And falling back on the "oh you're just playing the gender card" is rather weak.
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Reelya

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1183 on: December 28, 2014, 11:10:37 am »

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/358545/51_hd-gen_games_feature_female_characters/

Quote
Despite recent insinuations that female protagonists may negatively impact game sales, a recent study held by the EEDAR (Electronic Entertainment Design and Research) shows that this current generation boasts more playable female characters than ever before.

As noted by the EEDAR's studies, a whopping 51% of HD-gen games feature playable female characters -- a massive contrast to the male-dominated 90%, but a number that shows undeniable progress on behalf of the video game industry's efforts to appeal to ever-expanding demographics.

Very few female protagonists, except for the certified 50+% of current-gen games that do have one. And the EEDAR study was comprehensive: they included almost 700 console games from the XBOX360/PS3 generation which they could identify gender in. Ones with no gender were excluded from the study.

51% means that if you pick up a new game at random, it will more likely than not let you play as a woman if there is a protagonist at all.

So Virtz was correct, you can play a woman in at least 50% of modern console games, but that can't be said for female enemies. Playable women are therefore much more common than woman enemies (and when they do appear their gender is often associated with elite status or skill, and the guy units are the throw-away grunts).

You might be referencing the "4% of games only have a female protagonist" thing, and conflating that with "very few games have a female protagonist". But that is not really being honest. Those 4% of games stand out by not having a male choice, that's what defines the 4%, and you're basically rejecting the other 47% of games which do let you pick a woman as your avatar. By saying that 4% are the only games "that count" you're not standing up for what you can play, you're saying that games are only "feminist" if there's no choice to play a man, you're saying that the opposite choice to what you want shouldn't be in the game: you're dictating against choice. You're saying e.g. Jill Valentine in Resident Evil or FemShep aren't proper female characters, they don't "count" in your world.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 11:35:39 am by Reelya »
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1184 on: December 28, 2014, 11:14:31 am »

"I don't see the thing you're talking about in these examples." "Well, that's cause you're a man, you can't make the judgement. Also, there's no such thing as sexism against men."

Yes, it's frustrating when people don't immediately agree with your questionable views. And I say this as someone who would agree that women are under-represented in video games.

Although I'd say they're more under-represented in negative roles than positive ones. It's not uncommon for a game to feature female protagonists, or at least female supporting cast members, but have all the generic enemies be male. Pretty much the only modern ones with female generic enemies I can think of are ones that feature create-a-characters, though even there the ratios are usually skewed to feature more male adversaries.

I'd also be a proponent of more strong and less sexualized female protagonists. More Brienne of Tarth, less Lara Croft. Like unless there's magic or futuristic technology to even out physical differences, I find a strong protagonist more believable in a violent scenario, regardless of gender. And that's why I strongly dislike anime games with teenage protagonists. I'm not buying for a second that these lanky twerps can do things adults failed at.

Much earlier in this thread I already mentioned the idea that people can be very strong without appearing massive, and in the past most warriors were fairly ordinary in size despite being strong due to the lack of abundant food. A longbowman was immensely strong to draw back his bow, but would not be very bulky if he had been on a long campaign without much food despite still being able to use his bow (see Agincourt).

A physically unimposing warrior was not unusual in many periods of history.
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