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[Urist Tilaturist]

source? I know and follow plenty of porn stars and this is not my experience. Also, prostitutes don't do a "nasty" job. It's the world's oldest profession.

Sex workers does not include people working in sex shops.

It includes prostitutes, porn stars, strippers, etc. But I was commenting on wanting to look into what Sarkeesian may have said that was offensive, not really wanting to derail the thread about sex workers. I don't think it requires more specifics.

I don't understand your obsession with realism in games. Like, we really don't need sexualized version of armor available either way, and it would be silly to have to change how the system evaluates armor just to make women more vulnerable in the boob window area. That would just be a massive waste of time. I don't see sexualized armor and go "I should be able to shoot her in the cleavage and do lots of damage" that's not the issue at hand.

The world's oldest profession was more likely a priest or shaman, but never mind...

Would you not consider a job which massively increases your chance of being murdered or tortured to be nasty? Being a policeman in a ghetto is also a nasty job.

Female porn performers can earn quite a lot of money. That is a fact. Some of them have drug problems. So do rock musicians. That is also a fact.

What is your account of the life of a female porn performer?

[smeeprocket]

source? I know and follow plenty of porn stars and this is not my experience. Also, prostitutes don't do a "nasty" job. It's the world's oldest profession.

Sex workers does not include people working in sex shops.

It includes prostitutes, porn stars, strippers, etc. But I was commenting on wanting to look into what Sarkeesian may have said that was offensive, not really wanting to derail the thread about sex workers. I don't think it requires more specifics.

I don't understand your obsession with realism in games. Like, we really don't need sexualized version of armor available either way, and it would be silly to have to change how the system evaluates armor just to make women more vulnerable in the boob window area. That would just be a massive waste of time. I don't see sexualized armor and go "I should be able to shoot her in the cleavage and do lots of damage" that's not the issue at hand.

The world's oldest profession was more likely a priest or shaman, but never mind...

Would you not consider a job which massively increases your chance of being murdered or tortured to be nasty? Being a policeman in a ghetto is also a nasty job.

Female porn performers can earn quite a lot of money. That is a fact. Some of them have drug problems. So do rock musicians. That is also a fact.

What is your account of the life of a female porn performer?

you are still not providing sources. Accountants can do lots of drugs also. Doesn't mean it's a problem in the profession.

I'm not arguing that porn stars can't earn money, I am arguing that your assumption that they are generally coked up addicts is wrong and a harmful stereotype.

The job prostitutes are doing is dangerous if it is illegal. But at places where it is legal, like the bunny ranch, it is safe and perfectly clean. (as clean as sex can be)

Prostitution is both commonly referred to as the world's oldest profession and probably is, since long before civilization, it is believed women would trade sex for food for themselves and children. Assuming they weren't being raped, because that was pretty common.

[Neonivek]

that's not biphobia or homophobia at all.

"He likes sexy men, He MUST be totally gay"

Yep... Perfectly acceptable! *sarcasm*

I have yet to see a straight man sexualize another straight man, and that is not what is happening with game graphics by male artists.

Well of course not... you just said they are gay if they do that.

If you want clearly sexualized males that you can immediately and easily identify just look into the Tekken series where they literally have oiled up muscle men. In both smooth and hairy.

I think you are missing the point here when you say both genders like sexy characters

You seem to project this idea that sexuality is a very sex based idea. That straight men and women are only interested in the attractiveness (sexy attractiveness) of the other gender.

[Urist Tilaturist]

It is not legal in most of the USA. Unless you live in Nevada, it is not legal in your state. Therefore, it is dangerous.

Drugs are a serious problem in finance:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9993266/Financial-crisis-caused-by-too-many-bankers-taking-cocaine-says-former-drugs-tsar.html

Lots of people doing drugs in any profession is a problem. It is likely less of a problem in pornography than finance. Many actors do drugs. Why should porn performers be any different? I would say that any performer is more likely to have serious substance problems than the average citizen because of the people the associate with.

[Glowcat]

Hmm, I'm going to look up that stuff about Sarkeesian, because demeaning and insulting sex workers is never okay. For christ's sake, they are on the front lines, as far as I am concerned.

Personally I think she does walk an edge with some of the ways she discusses sex work in gaming. I can see how people read the way she describes sex work in a purely victim framework as problematic, given how often that is used to abuse women labelled victims of sex trafficking against their consent and throw them into the jaws of a hostile capitalist system as if it was their decision to make and not the person's. Not that Anita does this but rather that the wording she uses has made people leery about her methods of analyzing sex work in her examples since it's comparable a lot of the anti-sex work rhetoric.

But.. uh... this was sort of a rambling tangent meant to elucidate on criticisms around gender representations that is getting very derail-y and I probably should n't post when I should have been sleeping hours ago.

[Urist Tilaturist]

It seemed to be connected to the whole GTA 5 shitstorm where the player has the option of fucking prostitutes and possibly killing them. She made comments that were taken as dehumanising the prostitutes, which is strange when they are only pixels to start with.

Some prostitutes are trafficked, but some are not. In places where it is legal, almost all are not.

[Neonivek]

The difficulty with Anita is that she has a very poor way of going about her topics.

I could FULLY believe this criticism is because she said that a character being a prostitute in a game invites people to kill her. (She did, by the way... but that isn't my point)

So I don't know if that criticism genuine or the typical "Anita never explains her dang points!"

Given that the very same video opens with "See this picture of a woman playing an arcade game? This image projects to the reader that she is an object that you can play and win" I can see it going both ways.

[smeeprocket]

It is not legal in most of the USA. Unless you live in Nevada, it is not legal in your state. Therefore, it is dangerous.

Drugs are a serious problem in finance:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9993266/Financial-crisis-caused-by-too-many-bankers-taking-cocaine-says-former-drugs-tsar.html

Lots of people doing drugs in any profession is a problem. It is likely less of a problem in pornography than finance. Many actors do drugs. Why should porn performers be any different? I would say that any performer is more likely to have serious substance problems than the average citizen because of the people the associate with.

still no sources but I really don't want to get sidetracked by this.

that's not biphobia or homophobia at all.

"He likes sexy men, He MUST be totally gay"

Yep... Perfectly acceptable! *sarcasm*

I have yet to see a straight man sexualize another straight man, and that is not what is happening with game graphics by male artists.

Well of course not... you just said they are gay if they do that.

If you want clearly sexualized males that you can immediately and easily identify just look into the Tekken series where they literally have oiled up muscle men. In both smooth and hairy.

I think you are missing the point here when you say both genders like sexy characters

You seem to project this idea that sexuality is a very sex based idea. That straight men and women are only interested in the attractiveness (sexy attractiveness) of the other gender.

The argument stated was that perhaps the artists themselves found men sexually attractive (which many homosexual and bisexual men do, assuming they are not homoromantic or biromantic and then they might not find anyone attractive, but oftentimes, even asexuals will find people attractive, sex just doesn't do it for them) I counter argued that that would mean there were a lot of male artists in the business that were into guys, since it is mostly male artists.

Look, the design of men in these games is not sexy. It is musclebound and powerful. That is a male power fantasy. Now you could say a character like Gordon Freeman is meant to look good and is definitely not a male power fantasy, but he is not the muscles on muscles that many fantasy games depict their heroes as. Also Gordon Freeman's appearance is meant to be as everyman as possible.

Your point about attractiveness is irrelevant because we are not talking about pretty characters, we are talking about sexualized characters. Women gamers, in general, do not want to spend their time playing or looking at 42" 22" 38" measurements in bikinis. It is objectification, it is not attractive, it exists to appeal to straight men.

I find women more attractive than men, but I have never looked at one of these examples and been turned on and wanted to play the game. Just disgusted, and then I might play the game in spite of all that.

The tekken males are an example of a male power fantasy.

[Glowcat]

It seemed to be connected to the whole GTA 5 shitstorm where the player has the option of fucking prostitutes and possibly killing them. She made comments that were taken as dehumanising the prostitutes, which is strange when they are only pixels to start with.

Some prostitutes are trafficked, but some are not. In places where it is legal, almost all are not.

All art is pixels... or sound... or some other non-person thing. That does not change that art communicates to us nor changes the impacts of its messages about our society (whether explicitly intended or merely a reflection of how people think in its environment). And I am not about to get into an argument with you about sex work itself.

[Neonivek]

Ok so what you are telling me is I need to give you a clear sexualized male protagonist without muscles?

Or a example of a clearly sexualized male protagonist where his sexuality doesn't enhance his power ability?

Because you know... the Female Power Fantasy doesn't involve kicking butt and looking awesome while doing it.

Your point about attractiveness is irrelevant because we are not talking about pretty characters, we are talking about sexualized characters. Women gamers, in general, do not want to spend their time playing or looking at 42" 22" 38" measurements in bikinis. It is objectification, it is not attractive, it exists to appeal to straight men

Are you sure? Because we can test that.

We just have to open up any fashion magazine or look at its cover.

[smeeprocket]

Ok so what you are telling me is I need to give you a clear sexualized male protagonist without muscles?

Because you know... the Female Power Fantasy doesn't involve kicking butt and looking awesome while doing it.

Your point about attractiveness is irrelevant because we are not talking about pretty characters, we are talking about sexualized characters. Women gamers, in general, do not want to spend their time playing or looking at 42" 22" 38" measurements in bikinis. It is objectification, it is not attractive, it exists to appeal to straight men

Are you sure? Because we can test that.

The entire basis of this thread and the complaint of a huge chunk of female gamers is that we don't want that, we want to be represented as people.

You're basically saying "women disagree with this" so yea, prove to me that women gamers want to be objectified and play characters that are highly sexualized and 1 dimensional.

Also I'm not sure if you are testing this on me specifically, maybe that was not worded correctly.

There is no such thing as a female power fantasy. I don't even know what you are on about there. What would that even look like?

[Urist Tilaturist]

There is not really an argument since I am in favour of legalising prostitution anyway.

Still no sources to the contrary either. I have asked for a full explanation of your view of the situation. I am looking for reputable ones (not too partisan and not from reddit).

Not really reputable, but not anti-porn - check out this source:
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/archive/index.php/t-496663.html

"There is no such thing as a female power fantasy". Have you asked every woman in the world to make sure? What makes women so different in that way?

[smeeprocket]

There is not really an argument since I am in favour of legalising prostitution anyway.

Still no sources to the contrary either. I have asked for a full explanation of your view of the situation. I am looking for reputable ones (not too partisan and not from reddit).

Not really reputable, but not anti-porn - check out this source:
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/archive/index.php/t-496663.html

There is no such thing as a female power fantasy. Have you asked every woman in the world to make sure?

no that is not a reputable source, I don't know why you linked it.

If you make a claim, back it up. You don't ask people disagreeing to provide a source instead. The onus is on you to back up your claim.

I am telling you in pop culture (because I guess on an individual basis we all have some definition of what would make us powerful) and in games, there is no female power fantasy. It does not exist.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Only because women have not developed enough games yet! There is more to life than pop culture and games.

You made a claim countering mine. The onus is on you to provide a source as well. Guess what, reputable sources on drug use or lack thereof in pornography are hard to find. Both of us should find and provide sources. So far, neither of us have on this, but I have tried.

[Neonivek]

You're basically saying "women disagree with this" so yea, prove to me that women gamers want to be objectified and play characters that are highly sexualized and 1 dimensional.

So... sexy characters cannot be 3 dimensional?

I am reminded when I complained about huge breast sizes on a comic website and what they did is they showed a pin up that featured every major DC character at the time (this is before the New 52).

What I found was that there was a range. As well even though some characters were highly sexual with generous proportions, they were often well written as well. (Ohh Gail Simone, I cannot believe they tried to fire you. You are just about the ONLY person who can write Wonder Woman)

Sex and character is nuanced.

There is no such thing as a female power fantasy. I don't even know what you are on about there. What would that even look like?

Wait what?

A Power Fantasy is just that a Power + Fantasy... a Power Fantasy. It doesn't literally refer to muscles it can be anything.

Lara Croft used to be the titular female power fantasy for videogames. They actually did many documentaries and found that female gamers didn't just "put up" with her looks, they actually found the fact that she was also attractive to be a benefit to their experience. They wanted to be as adventurous, strong, and powerful but also look great while doing so. Yet that is just one example.