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[smeeprocket]

I'm not saying that's true, IO am saying that is the impression we get. We are always compared to men and considered inferior. If I tell you women are capable of more complex social and emotional interactions, and use more parts of their brain for it, and bring it up any time you try to talk about how men are equal and valid, you would probably start to feel inferior and it would become the basis for asserting my dominance over you, in a hypothetical society where women rules the patriarchy (patriarchy as a concept is different than a matriarchy so I wouldn't use that.)

[Neonivek]

. If I tell you women are capable of more complex social and emotional interactions, and use more parts of their brain for it, and bring it up any time you try to talk about how men are equal and valid, you would probably start to feel inferior and it would become the basis for asserting my dominance over you

Well, no because what you said is true and it has been documented several times. Women often use multiple topics at once in a conversation.

That and I am not a dog, I do not try to constantly reassert my dominance over people when I feel it is being questioned.

[smeeprocket]

. If I tell you women are capable of more complex social and emotional interactions, and use more parts of their brain for it, and bring it up any time you try to talk about how men are equal and valid, you would probably start to feel inferior and it would become the basis for asserting my dominance over you

Well, no because what you said is true and it has been documented several times. Women often use multiple topics at once in a conversation.

That and I am not a dog, I do not try to constantly reassert my dominance over people when I feel it is being questioned.

sometimes the power dynamic means you do, regardless of whether you mean to or not. And I have had plenty of men do jjust that. It's like the default response to women are equal, they HAVE to insist that men are stronger like I need to assure them of that and get it out of the way before they even consider that women might -otherwise- be equals.

So maybe you are better than that, but plenty of men have done that in my experience.

That said, let me be clear that men are people and individuals, and not one glob of sexism. (you have many forms of sexism! I KID!)

[Urist Tilaturist]

you guys need to lay off the personal attacks. Posts keep getting deleted. I don't care if you agree with me or not, but phrase it in a civil fashion.

No one is seizing your land to give it to black people, and I don't care if some slurs to you because you are white made you feel deeply uncomfortable. You position is privileged in our society. If you are in a ghetto and the only white person, yea the people in that ghetto might give you shit for being white, but all the rules of the system, the structure, your future, are all on a better path by default than anyone else.

You are not evil for being white or straight or cis-gendered or male, but you need to accept that you get benefits that others don't and any biases they have against you have little power compared to the power white beliefs and biases can have against them.

You have not properly addressed my criticism of your statement. You said unambiguously that saying that there was racism against white people was "absurd". There was no clarification of "in our society" or anything similar. You are not on a better path than anyone else in the ghetto if you are being mugged every day. Please tell me how things are easier in this case - while the police may be more inclined to sympathy for white folks, they are usually fairly useless in these situations anyway. And, of course, there are many cases of white men being singled out for rape because they are less likely to be protected by gang members. In most of the USA whites are doing better than certain other races, but to say this was true everywhere would be to grossly oversimplify US society.

All I see here is a real inability to see much more of the world than middle class and some parts of the lower class USA and notice that whites do not rule everywhere, and making statements that apply to certain sections of US society and sweeping them around the world.

I will take great comfort that if I am ever shot dead by a black man, I will die knowing that my prejudice could hurt him far more than his bullets could ever hurt me.

Matriarchy is fundamentally different from patriarchy? Explain how.

The only power dynamic here is that moderators have more than we do.

[smeeprocket]

you guys need to lay off the personal attacks. Posts keep getting deleted. I don't care if you agree with me or not, but phrase it in a civil fashion.

No one is seizing your land to give it to black people, and I don't care if some slurs to you because you are white made you feel deeply uncomfortable. You position is privileged in our society. If you are in a ghetto and the only white person, yea the people in that ghetto might give you shit for being white, but all the rules of the system, the structure, your future, are all on a better path by default than anyone else.

You are not evil for being white or straight or cis-gendered or male, but you need to accept that you get benefits that others don't and any biases they have against you have little power compared to the power white beliefs and biases can have against them.

You have not properly addressed my criticism of your statement. You said unambiguously that saying that there was racism against white people was "absurd". There was no clarification of "in our society" or anything similar. You are not on a better path than anyone else in the ghetto if you are being mugged every day. Please tell me how things are easier in this case - while the police may be more inclined to sympathy for white folks, they are usually fairly useless in these situations anyway. And, of course, there are many cases of white men being singled out for rape because they are less likely to be protected by gang members. In most of the USA whites are in a better state than certain other races, but to say this was true everywhere would be to grossly oversimplify US society.

All I see here is a real inability to see more of the world than middle class and some parts of the lower class USA and notice that whites do not rule everywhere, and making statements that apply to certain sections of US society and sweeping them around the world.

I have never heard of that rape thing. I have been paying more attention to men getting raped, (though you are less likely to get raped in prison than I am on the outside) because of Shia LeBeouf and his experience. I still have much to learn though, and it remains mostly unreported due to the feeling that men can't get raped, especially by women. Which is stupid and ridiculous. Of course they can.

There are places, small portions of society, where a white dude will be up shit's creek without a paddle. Poverty itself crushes anyone who experiences it. It is brutal and becomes a disease because it's incredibly hard to escape with how our society tries so hard to punish the poor and prevent their success.

But on average, you WILL get more advantages. You DO have privilege.

I am not trying to diminish your suffering. There is no hierarchy of oppression. But at the same time, you need to recognize the advantages you do get in society overall and the suffering others get, instead.

But I don't want the thread locked for veering too off topic at the same time.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Department of Justice findings say that about 200,000 men are raped in US prisons every year. Remember that this is just the reported rapes; those who are too scared to talk about it do not count. The USA has around 2,000,000 male prisoners, so that means about 1 in 10 US male prisoners report being raped in any particular year (not in their lives, that year). The number of reported rapes outside prison, male and female, in the USA is about 100,000 every year. Assuming that many rapes are not reported, we can say the real number is somewhat higher - I would say perhaps 500,000 if only 1/5 of rapes are reported - but I would struggle to believe that the USA has over 15,000,000 rapes every year, which it would have to for the average US woman outside prison to match the rape risk per year of a man inside.

If you have statistics to the contrary, please give them. Remember that this is about chance of being raped per year, not in a lifetime, since most prisoners are not in for life.

[smeeprocket]

Department of Justice findings say that about 200,000 men are raped in US prisons every year. Remember that this is just the reported rapes; those who are too scared to talk about it do not count. The USA has around 2,000,000 male prisoners, so that means about 1 in 10 US male prisoners report being raped in any particular year (not in their lives, that year). The number of reported rapes outside prison, male and female, in the USA is about 100,000 every year. Assuming that many rapes are not reported, we can say the real number is somewhat higher - I would say perhaps 500,000 if only 1/5 of rapes are reported - but I would struggle to believe that the USA has over 15,000,000 rapes every year, which it would have to for the average US woman outside prison to match the rape risk per year of a man inside.

If you have statistics to the contrary, please give them. Remember that this is about chance of being raped per year, not in a lifetime, since most prisoners are not in for life.

It's 1 in 5 women on average, 1 in 3 if you are native american, 1 in 4 for college age. That's also reported. I think my numbers count girls also.

Regardless of time in prison, being raped one rape towards your lifetime. Like I said while you are in prison, it is significantly less outside.

[smeeprocket]

...this entire thread is a list of problems with not a single proposed solution- you can't tell developers how to develop games and expect them to take you seriously when the suggestion is to scrap the entire story when you're just a single consumer. If you want this to change, start proposing actual solutions- otherwise, this is just venting for the sake of venting, and arguing without a point.

I think I've proposed goals. Just because I can't force devs to do them doesn't mean they aren't solutions. and it's not like the stories for ALL the games ever have been written, I'm not asking for games to be retroactively changed.

It seems like a lot of people don't understand that just because they don't have to do something doesn't mean ALL of us can't encourage them to do something, or that not doing it is acceptable. I don't know what solution you expect that doesn't involve devs agreeing to be more inclusive and employers taking on more women devs. They don't have to do any of that, it doesn't mean I'm just "whining". It means I am saying "this is what needs to happen, let's work towards encouraging designers to do this"

I don't understand why that is so hard to grasp.

[Virtz]

I think I've proposed goals. Just because I can't force devs to do them doesn't mean they aren't solutions. and it's not like the stories for ALL the games ever have been written, I'm not asking for games to be retroactively changed.

It seems like a lot of people don't understand that just because they don't have to do something doesn't mean ALL of us can't encourage them to do something, or that not doing it is acceptable. I don't know what solution you expect that doesn't involve devs agreeing to be more inclusive and employers taking on more women devs. They don't have to do any of that, it doesn't mean I'm just "whining". It means I am saying "this is what needs to happen, let's work towards encouraging designers to do this"

I don't understand why that is so hard to grasp.

Ok, this is returning to my first response, which I haven't answered the response to because the thread gained 7 pages when I next looked at it (and moved away from that topic), but are you 100% sure they're excluding female developers?

I've explained how there's currently very few female programmers at all (looking at my college experience), so where is the video game industry supposed to hire them from? Are you suggesting they should be turning down male applicants regardless of qualifications just to meet some percentage quota of female programmers?

I just don't understand how you want the video games industry to change this fairly. They don't control the majors women pick when going to college.

[Neonivek]

As well we explored why few women become videogame designers as well...

Being both A) They, as a whole, generally avoid the maths (though I am willing to believe this is due to socialization and can change). and B) they generally are not attracted to "making toys" (which so far... I have absolutely nothing to go on why this is true... other than it just seems to be true).

This is just before we add any outside factors. Such as toxic work environment.

[smeeprocket]

Well, encouraging developers to do something is one thing- but, as I'm sure you've noticed, large-company developers tend to not listen to encouragement other than by the people who give them a paycheck. If you can't fight the developers, then... why not join them? Now, I'm not saying the whole "oh why don't you make a game then blah blah blah" stuff that people mean as an insult- I mean it as an actual suggestion. If the current developers are refusing to make games that are remotely suitable, show them how wrong they are with a game that reflects how you see they should be done. If it is a commercial success, then other, larger developers will see this and hopefully realize that they can change without financial sacrifice.


What better way to show them the error of their ways by showing them what happens if they were to change?

Because without funding, there is no game. Without the support of large names, there is no game. We ALL need to push for this. Saying "go make your own game" isn't a solution. We need to expect more from them. We need to demand it. ALL of us. Women devs do make indie games, but it is hard to get backing and the male populace is often hostile to them being the developers.

As well we explored why few women become videogame designers as well...

Being both A) They, as a whole, generally avoid the maths (though I am willing to believe this is due to socialization and can change). and B) they generally are not attracted to "making toys" (which so far... I have absolutely nothing to go on why this is true... other than it just seems to be true).

This is just before we add any outside factors.

You made the assumption they are not attracted to making toys.  What mysterious outside factors are you talking about?

I think I've proposed goals. Just because I can't force devs to do them doesn't mean they aren't solutions. and it's not like the stories for ALL the games ever have been written, I'm not asking for games to be retroactively changed.

It seems like a lot of people don't understand that just because they don't have to do something doesn't mean ALL of us can't encourage them to do something, or that not doing it is acceptable. I don't know what solution you expect that doesn't involve devs agreeing to be more inclusive and employers taking on more women devs. They don't have to do any of that, it doesn't mean I'm just "whining". It means I am saying "this is what needs to happen, let's work towards encouraging designers to do this"

I don't understand why that is so hard to grasp.

Ok, this is returning to my first response, which I haven't answered the response to because the thread gained 7 pages when I next looked at it (and moved away from that topic), but are you 100% sure they're excluding female developers?

I've explained how there's currently very few female programmers at all (looking at my college experience), so where is the video game industry supposed to hire them from? Are you suggesting they should be turning down male applicants regardless of qualifications just to meet some percentage quota of female programmers?

I just don't understand how you want the video games industry to change this fairly. They don't control the majors women pick when going to college.

ahh the male fear that under-qualified women will take their jobs. No that isn't going to happen. Despite your college experience, I follow a number of female game devs. They are out there, not in the numbers the males are, but there nonetheless.

[Neonivek]

You made the assumption they are not attracted to making toys.

An assumption backed up by evidence. Don't blame me.

I tried to disprove it only to find that it was not only true, but that people knew about this for a long time.

What mysterious outside factors are you talking about?

Toxic work environment, College exclusionary efforts, just the pressure of trying to enter a male dominated field.

[Virtz]

As well we explored why few women become videogame designers as well...

Being both A) They, as a whole, generally avoid the maths (though I am willing to believe this is due to socialization and can change). and B) they generally are not attracted to "making toys" (which so far... I have absolutely nothing to go on why this is true... other than it just seems to be true).

This is just before we add any outside factors. Such as toxic work environment.

I think they actually don't avoid maths as much as Computer Science, though. At my college, the neighbouring Mathematics major had way more women than CS did, from what I recall.

Another aspect is that it apparently takes a certain sort of passion or insanity to work in the video games industry, as it's not particularly well-paying, nor stress-free (crunch times are legendary). Basically people who work there pretty much need to be into video games as well (perhaps besides higher-ups), and that's not necessarily true of programmers in general. And that returns to demographics related to who plays what sorts of video games.

Ok, this is returning to my first response, which I haven't answered the response to because the thread gained 7 pages when I next looked at it (and moved away from that topic), but are you 100% sure they're excluding female developers?

I've explained how there's currently very few female programmers at all (looking at my college experience), so where is the video game industry supposed to hire them from? Are you suggesting they should be turning down male applicants regardless of qualifications just to meet some percentage quota of female programmers?

I just don't understand how you want the video games industry to change this fairly. They don't control the majors women pick when going to college.

ahh the male fear that under-qualified women will take their jobs. No that isn't going to happen. Despite your college experience, I follow a number of female game devs. They are out there, not in the numbers the males are, but there nonetheless.

Did... did you read my post at all? That doesn't answer it, and it's kind of insulting, actually. Might even say sexist. I live in a country with a deficit in programmers, I am in little to no danger of losing work over competition, especially considering more women in CS wouldn't increase the output of programmers from notable colleges.

"A number of female game devs" doesn't sound like an amount that'd skew video game industry statistics. Maybe video game industry statistics reflect their proportional numbers overall. I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying there's few of them in general, and I don't see how the video game industry could change that.

Because without funding, there is no game. Without the support of large names, there is no game. We ALL need to push for this. Saying "go make your own game" isn't a solution. We need to expect more from them. We need to demand it. ALL of us. Women devs do make indie games, but it is hard to get backing and the male populace is often hostile to them being the developers.

Work a normal job, do the game in your spare time, kickstart it when you have something to show. That's how a lot of indie devs get started.

Also, I don't think people are hostile towards indie devs for the very fact of being female. People tend to get hostile with indie devs like Phil Fish, mostly for the sort of ego and language he sports. And it only gets worse when the devs don't just ignore the hecklers.

[Urist Tilaturist]

It's 1 in 5 women on average, 1 in 3 if you are native american, 1 in 4 for college age. That's also reported. I think my numbers count girls also.

Regardless of time in prison, being raped one rape towards your lifetime. Like I said while you are in prison, it is significantly less outside.

1 in 5 women in a lifetime, not every year. These are not comparable statistics. Prisoners do not spend their whole lives in prison, so comparing statistics for whole lives is not a fair comparison. The 200,000 figure was for number of men who were raped at least once in a given year; many of these men were not raped once but several or tens of times by mutiple attackers, as is also the case for female victims of sex gangs or abusive partners outside prison. Remember, this is 1 in 10 every year. For those prisoners serving multiple years or sentences, the numbers increase.

Your claim is that you personally are more likely to be raped than a male prisoner. This is bogus, since the average rape risk statistics count those groups far more likely to be victims than you are: college students, female prisoners, native Americans, armed forces personnel, women currently being victimised by violent partners or gangs. Since you are not (I think) part of any of these groups now, your chance of being raped next year (to give a comparable statistic) is far below average. A female prisoner, for example, may be more likely to be raped than a male prisoner, but you yourself are not. 1 in 10 US women are not sexually assaulted at least once every year. Risk also includes time.

To give a simplified example, somebody would be more likely to be raped living in a city where 1 in 15 women were raped every year for 50 years than in a city where 1 in 10 women were raped every year for 1 year (both these rates are horrendous, but this is just an example). That would not mean that women were more likely to be raped in the first city.

[Neonivek]

I think they actually don't avoid maths as much as Computer Science, though. At my college, the neighbouring Mathematics major had way more women than CS did, from what I recall

True, but computer science, to me, is a subset of maths... even if it is somewhat unrelated the fact remains that if you want to be a programmer you have to be good at math.