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[Caz]

reverse sexism.

This isn't a thing. :S

[smeeprocket]

reverse sexism.

This isn't a thing. :S

yea I think that was part of the point. I think Glowcat is also confused about what it seems like people are expressing versus what they actually mean, if it is different than what we are interpreting it as.

[Neonivek]

reverse sexism.

This isn't a thing. :S

Well reverse sexism is just sexism.

But it is used anytime
A) Someone applies "beneficial" sexism.
or
B) When it is "positive" sexism.

It isn't really a proper term in my opinion, but knowing what people are referring to when they use improper terminology is always helpful. Mostly because sexism is just sexism.

If someone is referring to A, I liked the term I heard once "Benevolent Discrimination" or "Benevolent Sexism" which lumps together a lot of things, but I tend not to use anyway because it is kind of a loaded term. If someone is referring to B there IS a proper term... I cannot remember.

from Neonivek that AAA games don't represent women because they're not the games women are interested in

Yeah I REALLY should either clarify or take that back. Since mostly I was referring to a VERY specific kinds of games (Not just shooters) and not Triple A as a whole.

Mostly I was saying that one cannot fault a game for catering to their chosen audience and that the largest fault in the line of "exclusion" is that it is things that, as sales project, people outside that demographic are not interested in.

As well as a suggested conversation piece for what games that overall have no real hope to capture the female dollar vote.

Overall the current argument does seem to rest on the idea that women, as a category, should not see efforts from game developers to consider them outside of very gender essentializing focuses built around conventional market demographics

Yes and no.

It isn't the job of the market to cater to those uninterested in their products and unless you are in the majority as a whole you shouldn't expect yourself to be catered to as a whole (and it stinks, but it is something I am growing increasingly distasteful for).

It has nothing to do with gender, it has to do with demographics.

Especially since as I said right now we live in a Casual Gamer market. They are mostly the ones being catered to right now.

[smeeprocket]

reverse sexism.

This isn't a thing. :S

Well reverse sexism is just sexism.

But it is used anytime
A) Someone applies "beneficial" sexism.
or
B) When it is "positive" sexism.

It isn't really a proper term in my opinion, but knowing what people are referring to when they use improper terminology is always helpful. Mostly because sexism is just sexism.

If someone is referring to A, I liked the term I heard once "Benevolent Discrimination" or "Benevolent Sexism" which lumps together a lot of things, but I tend not to use anyway because it is kind of a loaded term. If someone is referring to B there IS a proper term... I cannot remember.

from Neonivek that AAA games don't represent women because they're not the games women are interested in

Yeah I REALLY should either clarify or take that back. Since mostly I was referring to a VERY specific kinds of games (Not just shooters) and not Triple A as a whole.

Mostly I was saying that one cannot fault a game for catering to their chosen audience and that the largest fault in the line of "exclusion" is that it is things that, as sales project, people outside that demographic are not interested in.

As well as a suggested conversation piece for what games that overall have no real hope to capture the female dollar vote.

I don't understand the beneficial sexism comment but misandry is a myth. You don't have a power structure in place to back up and reinforce the supposed sexism. It's like saying you can be racist against white people. It's absurd.

But we can fault games for exclusion because women will buy the games if they appeal to them, and representing women in a positive light is neither hard nor detrimental to sales. It's the right thing to do.

[Neonivek]

I don't understand the beneficial sexism comment but misandry is a myth. You don't have a power structure in place to back up and reinforce the supposed sexism. It's like saying you can be racist against white people. It's absurd.

It would be a myth if it didn't actually have the ability to harm men... and reverse sexism isn't revenge sexism.

Also of course you can be racist against white people.

Definition: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races

Though if you want to get into a debate on actual harm and damage that has occurred over the years because of misandry we can get into it... but suffice it to say, just because you don't have the power structure to enforce your sexism it doesn't mean you aren't being sexist. As well many of the sexisms towards men are enforced by other men.

And ESPECIALLY since the double standard exists mostly because men and women are mostly seen as the opposites of the same coin. So any sexism towards males gets pushed directly onto women. Quite literally equality for women can only be achieved when both genders are unbound from their issues and not when women just manage to get enough advantages and disadvantages to stand shoulder to shoulder with men.

This idea of Misandry cannot exist pretty quickly falls apart when you realize that the majority of people, both men and women, do hold their own aspects of misandry.

The only difference is that women, by large, have it worse... but that never defends sexism.

I just don't get this belief on a practical level either. "Well son what was that? You cried because someone hit you and you were punished for it? (this is an exaggeration I'll admit), well your a man buck up!" I mean... wouldn't that concern you? Wouldn't a city having no men's shelters for battered men concern you? (also improving yay!)
-Actually on the subject of men finally being treated outside the stereotypes they are shackled to... Things have improved VASTLY in the past 20 years. I was in highschool when they didn't have any men's shelters and now there is 3 just where I live.

But we can fault games for exclusion because women will buy the games if they appeal to them, and representing women in a positive light is neither hard nor detrimental to sales. It's the right thing to do.

Can we? When about games that have only female characters that men might buy?

Or does this fall under "it isn't sexist if a woman does it"?

The problem isn't in individual games but the market as a whole.

Which is I think where we REALLY disagree Smeeprocket is that I don't think a game can be considered wrong for not including a gender... on its own. Though I'll certainly criticize it for what it does during the game.

The current market I do believe is ENTIRELY mistaken on how it believes that games with women don't sell. MOSTLY because the games it often refers to are games that are obviously bad (games with sexiness instead of gameplay for example).

I'd like to mention budget as well but honestly... I don't EXACTLY believe that money alone can sell a game... Now marketing budget... ok.

[Glowcat]

Hmm, seems like there could be a landmine of confusion up ahead, partly my fault. *attempts to disarm*

Technically I misspoke when I called it "reverse sexism" because I was feeling flippant towards indignation I found to be grandstanding and more suited to degrading communication than making any real point. More accurately the concerns I responded to were about prejudice. Sexism/Racism is, when understood at the academic level, about larger society and the combination of prejudice plus power. The actual accusation that annoyed me was that "lots of men do x" was also founded from my personal web experience as at least the reason many self-identified men give for having female avatars. It is not a generalization so much a description of a particular existing attitude with high frequency of being encountered. Honestly I think this response is a bit too masculinity-reinforcing to be uncomplicated but it is out there as a frequently cited "excuse" (of which there shouldn't need to be) when men choose to play a female character in MMOs.

Handy and easy to understand list of how oppression (leading to Racism, Sexism, or other forms of oppression) works. Well, in a 101 way, anyhow. Like I said in the bigotry thread, prejudice by itself isn't necessarily bad on a social level. It might lead to personal-level conflicts, including heated argumentation or the position one takes in.. threads like this, but even once it reaches the level of action it still requires a permeation across our society which self-perpetuates and becomes entrenched. It must also be conceptualized within the framework of who the oppression (mostly, it's complicated) benefits, which is pretty universally those classes* mostly in power even as defense of that system might target across class lines.

* Not the Marx definition primarily of economic class, but the expanded upon version that is now widely used by social theorists, especially those with a European background even though now it's a bit more global.

[Toady One]

I've removed several posts and sent out a few warnings.  I'm not going to shut down this discussion, but I think it would be wise not to expand it to all issues.  The racism discussion would probably work better in another thread.

[Rolan7]

Sexism against male suspects in the court system is very real, from the two cases I've been forced to see.  The backlash against doubting a supposed victim is completely devoid of justice, and does a disservice to actual victims as much as innocent suspects.

I just don't want my video games to be immersion-breakingly sexy or male-dominated, damn it.

[smeeprocket]

Sexism against male suspects in the court system is very real, from the two cases I've been forced to see.  The backlash against doubting a supposed victim is completely devoid of justice, and does a disservice to actual victims as much as innocent suspects.

I just don't want my video games to be immersion-breakingly sexy or male-dominated, damn it.

are you kidding? 4%, 4% of rape cases that even go to court get convicted. 2-4% of rape accusations are false, and from where I stand (as someone who pays close attention to that stuff) there is zero backlash for doubting the victim, instead the victim's name is dragged through the mud and she is slut shamed. Considering the rate of false reports (the same as most crimes) the vast majority of cases are in fact real. Let's not engage in rape apology and start mourning the lost careers of the poor disadvantaged rapists.

Also, way off topic.

[Urist Tilaturist]

It's like saying you can be racist against white people. It's absurd.

Does the name Robert Mugabe mean anything to you?

If any one race controls power, they can be racist to any other race that does not control it. Your statement there is a prime example of the white guilt exceptionalism that plagues many hipster types. Would you feel the same way if Mugabe had seized your farm and granted it to a black war veteran who has no idea how to run it because he is not a farmer, but gets to ruin it anyway because you were white?

Inside the USA, try being the only white kid in a black ghetto school and see how little racism you get.

You cannot preach against anything while only caring about it in some cases.

If this is too off topic for Toady's tastes then he can remove it.

[Virtz]

I don't understand the beneficial sexism comment but misandry is a myth. You don't have a power structure in place to back up and reinforce the supposed sexism. It's like saying you can be racist against white people. It's absurd.

Wow. Misandry, misogyny and racism, by their respective definitions, need not be related to power structures. It's something that can even exist solely in your mind as a bias. Maybe you need to work on your own biases before you start talking to others about theirs, cause this sounds like you're trying to justify yours.

[smeeprocket]

you guys need to lay off the personal attacks. Posts keep getting deleted. I don't care if you agree with me or not, but phrase it in a civil fashion.

No one is seizing your land to give it to black people, and I don't care if some slurs to you because you are white made you feel deeply uncomfortable. You position is privileged in our society. If you are in a ghetto and the only white person, yea the people in that ghetto might give you shit for being white, but all the rules of the system, the structure, your future, are all on a better path by default than anyone else.

You are not evil for being white or straight or cis-gendered or male, but you need to accept that you get benefits that others don't and any biases they have against you have little power compared to the power white beliefs and biases can have against them.

[Neonivek]

And I am sure it was a comfort to the people who lost their livelihood or lives.

It is like some sort of weird form of racism in it of itself.

That no matter how bad a "White person" is, they are always "advantaged".

And yet, this sort of racism creates the very racism you tried to prevent

That no matter how good a "Black person" is, they are always "disadvantaged"

It is like we are going back to the days where a successful woman is still deemed "successful... for a woman".

[smeeprocket]

And I am sure it was a comfort to the people who lost their livelihood or lives.

It is like some sort of weird form of racism in it of itself.

That no matter how bad a "White person" is, they are always "advantaged".

And yet, this sort of racism creates the very racism you tried to create.

And no matter how good a "Black person" is, they are always "disadvantaged"

It is like we are going back to the days where a successful woman is still deemed "successful... for a woman".

we are in those days. Glass ceiling is still there.

I'm sure we can list off a couple of bad situations for white people. But I think you underestimate how bad other people have it.

But Toady said to get off this topic.

We should talk more about inequality in games, and not race.

[Neonivek]

Well, smeeprocket lets take what you just said.

A Woman in a videogame's success is always "Good for a woman".

So how should we project that into the game?