Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[miauw62]

So they're really FAA games nowadays, then?

[smeeprocket]

That doesn't sound right, at least as a mass trend because women make up 18% of computer science degrees, and 22% of the games development workforce. If they were being unfairly stopped at the gates, you'd expect the percentage of women employed to be lower than the graduate rate.

At the same time female graduate levels slumped and stayed around 18% since 2007, women employed in the games industry doubled in the last 5 years. There's no great evidence that masses of women developers are being excluded deliberately.

how many of those women are working for AAA games? Because I'm not feeling represented.

How many Triple A games are women interested in?

Triple As are usually very polarizing when it comes to who is interested in either one.

The major point you have Smeeprocket is that your favorite games are ones that are very male oriented, that men buy and women avoid.

I am reminded a lot of Ninja turtles except their every attempt to include a woman on the team has always been to their detriment. Karai being probably the only female character I can think of who could have joined the Ninja turtles (the 2000 turtles that is) and it wouldn't have been lame... but she never did.

Or heck any "male character" in a "all female show" who has always felt like he belonged exactly 0% of the time or been a total slave of the female cast usually used to be "wrong!".

Triple A games that you reference are usually male oriented because they are targeted towards males because they are specifically tailored to men because men will buy them.

Your being excluded because you are not shelling out tons of cash.

It would be like me complaining that the biggest romantic comedy of a year wasn't male oriented enough... Of course it wasn't... Men don't typically watch romantic comedies, at least not enough to justify the huge budget (ignoring that they usually have small budgets because romantic comedies are easy to write and fund... with Taylor Perry finding a way to basically do them on the smallest funding possible). The only male character in MLP in the main cast is there to be cute and that is pretty much it, there isn't going to be a well made male cast member (in fact the only male characters who stepped up as characters did so to be love interests towards female characters)

YET I can forgive MLP because the Rainbow Bright reboot (which is terrible) did include a male lead, to the extent that he had more of a role then rainbow bright herself... and it was terrible for doing so... Basically being the third wheel in a show that REALLY didn't need him (and holy goodness is he clearly meant to attract guys).

But better yet... Triple A games make up a small percentage of games. and the last Triple A released? Was Destiny a RPG with male and female character selection.

So take that as you will.

Heck Diablo 3? Male and female selection and the main character and second main character of the game, outside the playable one, are both female.

Bioshock infinite? main character is female... She just isn't the playable one (but because you are a non-entity in the game).

Ohh my Triple As are so exclusionary.. I mean Grand Theft Auto 5 which only 15% of their fanbase are women... which had no selectable female character and was a game about organized crime. How many Mafia bosses are currently female?

The issue is not contained into Triple A games... or at least if you are going to make that claim then back it up with sales.

---

Though one thing that is something to talk about is what should the games with a 15% female fanbase, that won't increase, do?

While no one wants to have the poorly placed terrible female sidekick who is meant to be the channel for the female audience... Certainly there must be a middle ground.

Personally I think those games could use some enriching as far as female text is concerned.

I couldn't read through all this, it was just circular logic sexist garbage and stereotyping women's likes.

There are plenty of different AAA game genres, not all are vast majority male, that's just FPSs.

If you don't market towards women and engage them, they don't shell out tons of cash, so you continue not to appeal to them, ad nauseum and women continue to not be included.

Grand Theft Auto is a poor example because it is so degrading to women, but if you ever saw Traffic, the woman in that movie that leads a cartel is based on a real person. But who cares, is GTA a nonfiction game now other than one that is just hyperviolent and stereotypes everyone.

Do you really think most women my age give a shit about romantic comedies? Have you actually met any women? People keep using these sexist, stereotypical examples like candy crush saga and romantic comedies like women gamers all watch lifetime and the hallmark channel all day, love babies more than anything and just want a man to sweep them off their feet.

We are fucking gamers. We like games, often different games from one another. There are a lot of us, we are not the mythical unicorn you think we are. We are excluded and it behooves game designers, as capitalists and moral human beings, to put some gender equality in their games, and I really don't think it is too damn much to ask.

Seriously, how is this even a point of contention? Do you lose anything by there being in depth female protagonists often? Hell, a lot of guys play women half the time to look at their asses in third person, anyway.

[smjjames]

Not quoting because massive wall of text, and hard to edit on iPad.

I can't speak for 'a lot of guys', but I certainly don't play female characters just to look at their asses in third person view, so please stop generalizing.

If it helps any, I'm male, almost as old as you are (three years younger, if your age is correct) and I've done gaming pretty much from the start. Personally, I don't care about whether the character if male or female, to rephrase it, it doesn't matter whether the character is female or not. Although I don't play FPS and shooters, instead I prefer sandbox stuff and adventure and stuff.

[smeeprocket]

Not quoting because massive wall of text, and hard to edit on iPad.

I can't speak for 'a lot of guys', but I certainly don't play female characters just to look at their asses in third person view, so please stop generalizing.

If it helps any, I'm male, almost as old as you are (three years younger, if your age is correct) and I've done gaming pretty much from the start. Personally, I don't care about whether the character if male or female, to rephrase it, it doesn't matter whether the character is female or not. Although I don't play FPS and shooters, instead I prefer sandbox stuff and adventure and stuff.

Honestly, it's not even a derogatory statement, play a female for that if you want. My boyfriend does it. It doesn't work well in reverse because playing a third person guy character is like watching a refrigerator move.

I'm honestly not trying to generalize all guys, but this mentality is what dominates and directs the industry. In the same sense I am tired of these constant comments that just pidgeonhole the entire section of the gaming populace to gender role based app games and assume we like the things that frankly, we are told we should like by the heteropatriarchy. I don't oppose women liking those things, but we do not fit into this narrow category where we all have the same likes and dislikes and just consume whatever Hollywood, society, and games tell us to. I am a human being and an individual, just like any male gamer. There are others with the same interests as me.

Broadening your audience is a good things, and women and girls will flock to games that appeal to them. Heck, throw some girls in your commercials playing the game and you'll draw them in on that alone. Little girls that feel like FPSs are for boys based on what they see won't pick them up and become future FPS fans that have the experience and interest in playing things like CoD. I missed years of my youth playing these games because they excluded my gender, and it shows in my lack of talent at them (though I am quickly improving.)

Using sexist stereotypes to argue your point (not you specifically) just reinforces for me that a large portion of the male gaming populace thinks these kinds of things about us, and makes me feel wholly unwelcome. You specifically seek to alienate us instead of finding common ground.

My boyfriend was playing Rift and the people in voice chat with him started talking bad things about women in general. He calmly made it clear that that was not okay and not a good thing to do, and it settled down and people even apologized. My boyfriend is especially calm (whereas I am fiery, we compliment each other very well, he is cautious, I am impulsive,) and can argue these points with logic and patience.

I am exhausted from fighting this fight all the time. I know I make a point of seeking it out sometimes, but I honestly feel someone needs to speak out. So it might as well be me. Even if I wasn't a woman, I would still have a vested interest in making things more equal in games and elsewhere.

As for you personally not caring if the character is male or female, I honestly believe that is true for a lot of gamer males. The reason it is an issue for women is because it is so overwhelmingly males or it is females that are depicted in bad ways or have 1 dimensional personalities. It doesn't even have to be perfect, this whole thing where it is impossible to make women happy no matter how you spin the character is a complete strawman. I am a big fan of lara croft (but not the new game) even though the creator made her as she was because he said he didn't want to look at a dude, but a sexy women, and because a bug with proportions was approved of by the audience. But despite those flaws, she's a strong character.

I want a wide variety of different female characters, wonder women and nancy drews are great too, not just the power was in you all along women. I don't want to see rape or victimization used in a lazy attempt to build character most of the time, and definitely if it has no other place in the narrative. Hire female devs and they will have a better grasp on what appeals to us. A lot of it is the same thing, there's just some things that alienate us. Foster the good things and it will help the male audience better relate. Because right now a whole lot of gamer males are anything but welcoming to female gamers.

Also, I want a few games with the stereotypical kidnapped princess or maiden, but this time she rescues herself and her kingdom. I would love to see that.

I know not every guy approves of these things, but I implore you, write game companies and developers and tell them that. See if you can get others to do it. Say you will happily buy games with these elements and you want the environment to be more welcoming to female gamers. You are the demographic they aim for, use that power.

[Caz]

Do you really think most women my age give a shit about romantic comedies?

Yes, that's generally the whole point of producing them.

Have you actually met any women? People keep using these sexist, stereotypical examples like candy crush saga and romantic comedies like women gamers all watch lifetime and the hallmark channel all day, love babies more than anything and just want a man to sweep them off their feet.

[...] There are a lot of us, we are not the mythical unicorn you think we are.

Pls no with the endless strawman arguments.

Hell, a lot of guys play women half the time to look at their asses in third person, anyway.

How can you accuse people of being sexist when you post crap like this?

[smeeprocket]

Do you really think most women my age give a shit about romantic comedies?

Yes, that's generally the whole point of producing them.

Have you actually met any women? People keep using these sexist, stereotypical examples like candy crush saga and romantic comedies like women gamers all watch lifetime and the hallmark channel all day, love babies more than anything and just want a man to sweep them off their feet.

[...] There are a lot of us, we are not the mythical unicorn you think we are.

Pls no with the endless strawman arguments.

Hell, a lot of guys play women half the time to look at their asses in third person, anyway.

How can you accuse people of being sexist when you post crap like this?

I'm 34, a lot of the women who watch those are 40-50 and frankly, it's because society tells them they are supposed to care about those things. They are incredibly sexist and stereotypical in and of themselves. The demean women and over simplify us. Some women like them, but some people also like seth rogen comedies, that does not mean all or even most women are interested in romantic comedies.

I don't think my point was sexist at all. I like staring at the ass of my characters, too. I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing. I know a lot of guys who take that route. I'm not saying all guys or possibly even most guys.

[Caz]

I'm 34, a lot of the women who watch those are 40-50 and frankly, it's because society tells them they are supposed to care about those things. They are incredibly sexist and stereotypical in and of themselves. The demean women and over simplify us. Some women like them, but some people also like seth rogen comedies, that does not mean all or even most women are interested in romantic comedies.

The age group is similar enough, but you're missing the point. Do you think that romantic comedies are marketed towards men? They're really not.

"Because society tells them" is also a non-argument. "Society" tells everyone what to do, regardless of gender. "Society" is made up of people. You're saying something like "women liking romantic comedies doesn't because society convinces people to care about them". I'm pretty sure that's true for any argument you can make up about anything. Doesn't make the fact that women watch romantic comedies that are geared towards them because they are enjoyed by that demographic.

[smjjames]

I may have missed it earlier in the thread, but, how many adventure games like point and clicks have you played with female main characters? Or even stuff outside of the usual genre that you like?

You say you want variety, well, it's there if you look for it, it just might not be in the shooters FPS genre.

[Caz]

I may have missed it earlier in the thread, but, how many adventure games like point and clicks have you played with female main characters? Or even stuff outside of the usual genre that you like?

You say you want variety, well, it's there if you look for it, it just might not be in the shooters FPS genre.

Seconding this. FPS games have the least amount of female protagonists simply because fairly few women play them.

[smeeprocket]

I'm 34, a lot of the women who watch those are 40-50 and frankly, it's because society tells them they are supposed to care about those things. They are incredibly sexist and stereotypical in and of themselves. The demean women and over simplify us. Some women like them, but some people also like seth rogen comedies, that does not mean all or even most women are interested in romantic comedies.

The age group is similar enough, but you're missing the point. Do you think that romantic comedies are marketed towards men? They're really not.

"Because society tells them" is also a non-argument. "Society" tells everyone what to do, regardless of gender. "Society" is made up of people. You're saying something like "women liking romantic comedies doesn't because society convinces people to care about them". I'm pretty sure that's true for any argument you can make up about anything. Doesn't make the fact that women watch romantic comedies that are geared towards them because they are enjoyed by that demographic.

and I'm saying you are lumping an entire demographic into this one stupid stereotype. I know a fair share of guys that like more guy oriented romantic comedies, tbh. Women like lots of movies though, even though movies have the same flaws as video games with representation of women. We don't just like romantic comedies.

The point is, these examples are going to get used like that will make it click for me, but they are just stereotypes that further impress on me a lack of regard for women as individuals by some male gamers.

[Ghills]

I'm 34, a lot of the women who watch those are 40-50 and frankly, it's because society tells them they are supposed to care about those things. They are incredibly sexist and stereotypical in and of themselves. The demean women and over simplify us. Some women like them, but some people also like seth rogen comedies, that does not mean all or even most women are interested in romantic comedies.

The age group is similar enough, but you're missing the point. Do you think that romantic comedies are marketed towards men? They're really not.

"Because society tells them" is also a non-argument. "Society" tells everyone what to do, regardless of gender. "Society" is made up of people. You're saying something like "women liking romantic comedies doesn't because society convinces people to care about them". I'm pretty sure that's true for any argument you can make up about anything. Doesn't make the fact that women watch romantic comedies that are geared towards them because they are enjoyed by that demographic.

Society is people, true. Usually it's mostly the people who are in charge. In the entertainment industry, those people are usually older white males.  Who OK projects based on what they think will sell, which may or may not reflect anyone's actual taste.

Some people like Seth Rogan 'comedy'.  Some people like romcoms. Some people like BDSM dungeons, or Pokemon, etc, etc.  Saying an entire gender likes something is, yes, being sexist. Claiming that 'romantic comedies are enjoyed by women' is like saying 'action flicks are enjoyed by men'. There's an element of truth to it, but only a bit.  Lots of women dislike romcoms, and lots of men dislike action flicks (although few of either gender will say that flat out, because it's unfeminine or unmanly to do so. And of course no guy can be seen going to a romcom alone, he would lose his mancard).

You're repeating a stereotype, and one that is highly influenced by societal expectations of people.  Romcoms are a 'safe' option for women. Everyone expects them to like them, so it becomes a default and a safe choice regardless of individual taste.  Much like an action flick is a default and safe choice for guys even if they don't really like action movies. 

[Neonivek]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I couldn't read through all this, it was just circular logic sexist garbage and stereotyping women's likes

Ha ha ha! Its funny because my opinions are backed up by facts. Facts that I had to actually look up in this thread where I previously thought the buying habits of males and females were different yet similar.

But on a more serious note... It isn't sexist to say facts no matter HOW inconvenient it is to women to hear them.

There are plenty of different AAA game genres, not all are vast majority male, that's just FPSs.

Your not talking about those. As well I bring up the fact that Triple As aren't all vast majority male as well.

If you don't market towards women and engage them, they don't shell out tons of cash, so you continue not to appeal to them, ad nauseum and women continue to not be included.

The rate for total exclusion if there is an interest is 30/70.

Grand Theft Auto is a poor example because it is so degrading to women, but if you ever saw Traffic, the woman in that movie that leads a cartel is based on a real person. But who cares, is GTA a nonfiction game now other than one that is just hyperviolent and stereotypes everyone.

Then lets bring up Big Bang Theory which is a show that does nothing but degrade women... who are one of their biggest fanbases.

As well Grand Theft Auto isn't unique, many military shooters which do not degrade women in anyway... have similar demographics.

Finally, outside hookers... What woman are you talking about? It wasn't until the 5th game in the series where a truly deplorable female character existed. When "dating" finally happened the women had a wide and variable personality. The 5th game also featured quite a few female crooks and robbers and yet it didn't improve the demographic. It didn't feature a playable one though (outside online play).

Do you really think most women my age give a shit about romantic comedies? Have you actually met any women? People keep using these sexist, stereotypical examples like candy crush saga and romantic comedies like women gamers all watch lifetime and the hallmark channel all day, love babies more than anything and just want a man to sweep them off their feet.

Well actually lets see! let me see... the age range of women who prefer romantic comedies is 29-49 it seems. With second highest? less then 29.

I only bring up Romantic Comedies not because "ALL WOMEN LIKE ROMANTIC COMEDIES GUYS!" but because with few exceptions women are the ONLY people who like Romantic comedies as a whole. It is the most easily understood female dominated form of media outside talk shows.

So Romantic Comedies do not cater to men.

So they are the standard of "Fair treatment" as far as your moralistic argument is concerned. Unless you have some moral objection to romantic comedies and how they typically portray men and exclude them in their set up.

We are fucking gamers. We like games, often different games from one another. There are a lot of us, we are not the mythical unicorn you think we are. We are excluded and it behooves game designers, as capitalists and moral human beings, to put some gender equality in their games, and I really don't think it is too damn much to ask.

I don't... women are just women.

Seriously, how is this even a point of contention? Do you lose anything by there being in depth female protagonists often? Hell, a lot of guys play women half the time to look at their asses in third person, anyway.

Ultimately I have to be in the real world. I want games with some bite that are actually difficult AND deep. There are a lot of games I want to be made, a lot of gimmicks to come to the forefront.

But... That won't happen because I am not the prime demographic of those videogames. I am not a casual gamer, who are the prime demographic right now.

It is why I don't argue that games should cater to my needs but rather that games can be so much better, in general, if they adopted some of these features.

I don't argue that games should stop having huge breasted women because it is sexist and wrong, because people who find it sexist and wrong are not the demographic and that is basically saying "hey company, make less money"... But rather that it is stupid and that people don't like it as much as they think they do.

Want to prove that games should include more women as main characters, should have more involved storylines, then prove that it is worthwhile in it of itself.

Yeah it SUCKS that you feel excluded from most videogames... Heck 'I' feel excluded from most videogames.

I just object to your methodology of argument. Especially your tendency to call anything that doesn't favor your argument as sexist.

---

I wanted to find something beyond demographics. What is the responsibility of a game that women as a whole do not like and will not buy?

Is there a base level BEYOND demographics? Does even a small 15% deserve recognition? Is there a way to cater to your 15% in an unintrusive or terrible way?

I wanted to first establish that there are just going to be games that women as a whole will not buy or want as a whole as a fact (Since the opposite is true as well)... AND that catering to a gender wasn't inherent wrong because this reality exists.

For example with Romantic Comedies? People are catching up to how sexist they are to men most of the time.

But does catering to a gender mean you have to be so exclusionary to the other? Can you have a "Boys club" without being a "Boys club" so to speak?

As well I ALSO wanted to establish that "Token effort" is often worse then no effort at all. You cannot force inclusion, it needs to evolve from a genuine desire to include those storylines. So, lets create that desire. Lets talk about the artistic and worthwhile merit of these storylines.

[Caz]

and I'm saying you are lumping an entire demographic into this one stupid stereotype. I know a fair share of guys that like more guy oriented romantic comedies, tbh. Women like lots of movies though, even though movies have the same flaws as video games with representation of women. We don't just like romantic comedies.

The point is, these examples are going to get used like that will make it click for me, but they are just stereotypes that further impress on me a lack of regard for women as individuals by some male gamers.

O_o You've completely ignored or misunderstood every point I've ever made in this thread. Misrepresenting someone's argument doesn't change the minds of anyone. I'm kinda done arguing someone who is so closed-minded that they will create strawmen and blanket statements instead of actually debating.

[smeeprocket]

and I'm saying you are lumping an entire demographic into this one stupid stereotype. I know a fair share of guys that like more guy oriented romantic comedies, tbh. Women like lots of movies though, even though movies have the same flaws as video games with representation of women. We don't just like romantic comedies.

The point is, these examples are going to get used like that will make it click for me, but they are just stereotypes that further impress on me a lack of regard for women as individuals by some male gamers.

O_o You've completely ignored or misunderstood every point I've ever made in this thread. Misrepresenting someone's argument doesn't change the minds of anyone. I'm kinda done arguing someone who is so closed-minded that they will create strawmen and blanket statements instead of actually debating.

hmm it's not intentional. I've been trying to debate what you argue for. Maybe I am misinterpreting something.

[Glowcat]

I've read it over at least three times and I don't think you are, though maybe there's some confusion being generated due to trying to address the conglomerate of ideas all at once? i.e female gamers may outnumber men but they mostly play candy crush, and from Neonivek that AAA games don't represent women because they're not the games women are interested in, then... whatever Caz read and thought the argument was about)

Overall the current argument does seem to rest on the idea that women, as a category, should not see efforts from game developers to consider them outside of very gender essentializing focuses built around conventional market demographics. Which... I thought you were addressing... but supposedly that's not what they meant, despite all their words communicating to that effect. If it isn't it would be nice of them to focus on restructuring their arguments in a legible fashion instead of complaining about reverse sexism.