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[Neonivek]

That might fit with some of the attempts about getting more women into engineering degrees too, more women were interested when they link the field of study to specific real-world issues that you'll be helping with, whereas guys are more than happy with "you'll be making cool shit" even if it wasn't linked back to anything concrete. So the guy engineers are perfectly happy with tinkering for tinkering's sake, but women needed it to be linked to something with more meaning.

Which oddly enough also follows into one "income disparity" article I read that says that PART, not all, of the income disparity between men and women is that women will often chose jobs that pay less but are more fulfilling. Working for non-profit organizations over megacorps.

Though the article was only incidental and never dived in WHY women work for those jobs. Which easily could be because non-profits have a less biased hiring practice that doesn't discourage female employees.

That said, I've never felt like women mature faster than men all -that- much. Just getting your period doesn't mean you are immediately an adult

You just have to compare what a 12 year old boy versus a 12 year old girl will talk about to see the difference.

It is night and day the differences between how these two groups socialize.

[Reelya]

http://qz.com/182977/there-is-no-gender-gap-in-tech-salaries/



Sort of muddies the waters a bit. Engineering is a "dudish" as possible yet it has no gender gap for graduates, and is the best paying field for women on top of that. Maths, computing and physical sciences also have pay parity. And there I've just listed the degrees with the lowest female participation rates, and the disparity isn't explained or reflected in unequal pay.

The data is from the American Association of University Women.

I extracted the original graph from the AAUW report:



Careers on the left are female-dominated, careers on the right are male-dominated. Note that nursing gives really good pay rates, is gender equal and has almost all women working in it. Engineering also has no pay gap, and has great pay rates but has almost all men working in it. At least for college graduates, there isn't any specific strong trend to show that male-dominated fields have a bigger pay gap, or that fields heavily dominated by women systematically get low pay.

[Quartz_Mace]

That said, I've never felt like women mature faster than men all -that- much. Just getting your period doesn't mean you are immediately an adult.

Depending on what you mean, I agree. The woman you described has reached sexual maturity, or at least is coming closer to it, but that is extremely different from mental maturity. There are plenty of men and women who act like children sometimes. Sexual maturity has nothing to do with mental maturity.

Overall, I have noticed that many women seem to reach mental maturity faster than many men. I am not sure why this is. Maybe it's male testosterone, hormones, and other chemicals with effects on the brain. More likely, I think it has to do with upbringing. In most societies, the social norm is if a woman wants to have children, she gets married to someone she loves, conceives the child, is pregnant with the child for 9 months(roughly, in a healthy pregnancy), gives birth(hoping the child makes it, which sadly doesn't always happen), repeats until she has as many children as she wants, and then raises them until they leave the home. For men, the norm is to marry a woman he loves, conceive the children, and "support his family,"* occasionally helping raise the child(ren). Women are expected to raise the children, but men are not. That, I think, is the problem. The girls are raised in this society in which getting married and starting a family is normal, but having a family ties women down a lot more, so they need to be mature and responsible. If the father were required to care and raise the child more, maybe that culture would lead to more mentally mature young men.

*This is the "good" thing to do, and too often isn't even done. Sadly, it's not enough. The father is just as much a parent as the mother and should act like it. Many men feel it's enough, but even the government can put a child on welfare and give them sustenance. It is extremely different from raising a child.

[smeeprocket]

That might fit with some of the attempts about getting more women into engineering degrees too, more women were interested when they link the field of study to specific real-world issues that you'll be helping with, whereas guys are more than happy with "you'll be making cool shit" even if it wasn't linked back to anything concrete. So the guy engineers are perfectly happy with tinkering for tinkering's sake, but women needed it to be linked to something with more meaning.

Which oddly enough also follows into one "income disparity" article I read that says that PART, not all, of the income disparity between men and women is that women will often chose jobs that pay less but are more fulfilling. Working for non-profit organizations over megacorps.

Though the article was only incidental and never dived in WHY women work for those jobs. Which easily could be because non-profits have a less biased hiring practice that doesn't discourage female employees.

That said, I've never felt like women mature faster than men all -that- much. Just getting your period doesn't mean you are immediately an adult

You just have to compare what a 12 year old boy versus a 12 year old girl will talk about to see the difference.

It is night and day the differences between how these two groups socialize.

no that's is not at all why there is an income disparity. This are in equal jobs. The fields are the same, everything is equivalent. It's not an amazing coincidence that women get paid less for more work or them just choosing to do things that matter more.

And tbh, I don't know what you are talking about. Every 12 year old I know sounds like a little kid. At 12, personally, I was more into boy stuff. But what you are experiencing is gender roles and enforced societal expectations.

Personally I find kids unpleasant to be around regardless of gender. They never shut up, talk about the most inane things possible, and I always have this thing in the back of my mind where I suspect they are bullies.

[AlleeCat]

Points and laughs at the people who say the gender pay gap isn't real.

[Reelya]

Those are comparing entire fields, not necessarily people in the same roles.

Yes there is a pay gap, and after all variables are corrected for it's about a 5%-7% difference between men and women who work the same hours in the same field and have the same experience.

That's not fair of course but it's specifically not the 23% difference often cited (which is yearly wages and not even adjust for hours worked). If you want to cut the wage gap, legislate to reduce the working week to 32 hours. Many more women work 32-35 hours than men, who tend to do most of the 35+ hour jobs. Shortening legal work hours will reduce unemployment and reduce both the raw and adjusted pay gaps.

[smeeprocket]

Those are comparing entire fields, not necessarily people in the same roles.

Yes there is a pay gap, and after all variables are corrected for it's about a 5%-7% difference between men and women who work the same hours in the same field and have the same experience.

That's not fair of course but it's specifically not the 23% difference often cited (which is yearly wages and not even adjust for hours worked). If you want to cut the wage gap, legislate to reduce the working week to 32 hours. Many more women work 32-35 hours than men, who tend to do most of the 35+ hour jobs. Shortening legal work hours will reduce unemployment and reduce both the raw and adjusted pay gaps.

"number of children" wtf does that even mean? How does that get included? The real problem is not having accessibility for mothers, such as having daycare and paid pregnancy leave. Actually, in a great deal of jobs (and the SC is hearing a case about it now) your employer can just fire you if you become pregnant.

But let's not underestimate the pay gap. Male employers will in fact pay women less for equal work, I mean, even if you look at the pay for hollywood actors and actresses in the same movies... And that's not even accounting for all the times a woman is passed up to hire a man, regardless of her qualifications.

[Reelya]

I'm not underestimating the pay gap, I'm citing the actual figures economist have looked at.

A feminist group even found that pay rates are equal in most graduate fields. The only unequal areas were K-12 education and sales/corporate roles.

[smeeprocket]

I'm not underestimating the pay gap, I'm citing the actual figures economist have looked at.

A feminist group even found that pay rates are equal in most graduate fields. The only unequal areas were K-12 education and sales/corporate roles.

yea some of the things they are taking into consideration make no sense. How does how many children one has relate?

[AlleeCat]

Someone tried to say that the gender pay gap didn't exist because it's illegal to discriminate based on gender. The best response I saw was, "Murder is illegal too. That doesn't mean people don't still do it."

[Reelya]

Having more kids means you usually need more time to take care of them.

Adjusting for number of kids would actually mean that the pay gap should increase as you would normally assume that a woman with children would be more impacted for wages than a man with children. If you adjust for # of kids, you basically say that a man with 3 children should earn the same as a woman with 3 children, and any difference is the discriminatory part.

I can't see how you can twist this to say that by adjusting for number of children is somehow hiding the pay gap.

[smeeprocket]

Someone tried to say that the gender pay gap didn't exist because it's illegal to discriminate based on gender. The best response I saw was, "Murder is illegal too. That doesn't mean people don't still do it."

yea it's not even illegal, I think the equal pay for equal work bill got stalled didn't it?

It's funny how much time some people will spend complaining about these armies of under-qualified women and minorities taking over jobs of skilled white male workers, and then take no issue with these disparities by just pretending they don't exist.

"Yes, the situation your cousin's brother's nephew experienced is totally legit, but our problems are imaginary."

edit: I'm just wondering how it relates at all? Any changes would be noticed by hours worked, why are children being factored in separately. Though the whole thing understates the issue with women and childcare being necessary for their success in a working environment and businesses failing miserably to make it available.

[Reelya]

If you adjust by number of children, it will actually make that discrimination more clear, not hide it. e.g. it's saying a man with 3 children should earn the same as a woman with 3 children (all other things being equal) and if there's a gap, that's the discrimination, although it's the sum effect of all factors that go into that (social policies, welfare, tax policies, company policies, bias etc)

[smeeprocket]

yea I wasn't sure in what way the children were being calculated in, tbh.

We're veering a bit off topic though.

The point is, I believe there are qualified females out there, I believe they are applying, and I believe they are being turned down. I do not think they have nearly the numbers that male devs have, but I think they are denied access to the industry on a much larger scale.

It's not going to 100% be the case, but I think female developers can better make a game women, and honestly both genders, can find enjoyment in. Well, tbf, I find enjoyment in games marketed towards males, I just feel very excluded.

And I can not express enough that there is a very creepy, aggressive, rape-y element in gaming culture. Like I said, I don't use voice chat for TF2 because every guy on the chat will become absolutely enthralled by you, either making overtly sexual advances, or just acting like you are a mystical unicorn that they have to compliment or show off to constantly.

In ESO I was in a guild with a female leader who led us on sieges, and we were being led by a male who switched over to her. This guy, he starts getting all weird and braggy, and then making comments about how sexy her voice is. I'm like "your creeping me out, dude" and he gets all offended and leaves. It's like, who are these people that have so little interaction with the other gender that they think acting like that will in anyway produce whatever result they are going for?

[Reelya]

That doesn't sound right, at least as a mass trend because women make up 18% of computer science degrees, and 22% of the games development workforce. If they were being unfairly stopped at the gates, you'd expect the percentage of women employed to be lower than the graduate rate.

At the same time female graduate levels slumped and stayed around 18% since 2007, women employed in the games industry doubled in the last 5 years. There's no great evidence that masses of women developers are being excluded deliberately.