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[Neonivek]

Can we escape WW2 games anyhow?

Since I agree that there should be more female characters with worthwhile stories who fulfill their plotlines by their own power...

But this is basically become "They should make a Sherlock Holmes game where Sherlock is a woman" "But it isn't in the books, I mean they could. It would be interesting, I'd probably play it" "Yes but they should"

[Graknorke]

But this is basically become "They should make a Sherlock Holmes game where Sherlock is a woman" "But it isn't in the books, I mean they could. It would be interesting, I'd probably play it" "Yes but they should"

That's probably more valid than WW2. Since Sherlock Holmes is not and never was a real person.

[Rolan7]

Can we escape WW2 games anyhow?

Since I agree that there should be more female characters with worthwhile stories who fulfill their plotlines by their own power...

But this is basically become "They should make a Sherlock Holmes game where Sherlock is a woman" "But it isn't in the books, I mean they could" "Yes but they should"

The way I saw it it was "They should make more female detective games"  "Why does Sherlock have to be a woman, you're being sexist" "Well maybe Sherlock SHOULD be a woman you sexist"
And now it's just noise

[Caz]

The way I saw it it was "They should make more female detective games"  "Why does Sherlock have to be a woman, you're being sexist" "Well maybe Sherlock SHOULD be a woman you sexist"
And now it's just noise

Paula Myo was the best female detective. Not a video game character, though.

[Loud Whispers]

The way I saw it it was "They should make more female detective games"  "Why does Sherlock have to be a woman, you're being sexist" "Well maybe Sherlock SHOULD be a woman you sexist"
And now it's just noise

Don't forget the argument that AAA game developers should try to retrieve their heads from the deepest recesses of their digestive system and try making an original game for once, instead of Sherlock Holmes 7: The shadow enigma mysteries of Pluto: Sherlock is now a woman: pt III

[Neonivek]

But this is basically become "They should make a Sherlock Holmes game where Sherlock is a woman" "But it isn't in the books, I mean they could. It would be interesting, I'd probably play it" "Yes but they should"

That's probably more valid than WW2. Since Sherlock Holmes is not and never was a real person.

Well you wouldn't get historical buffs really arguing. It might be a bit insulting to some people because it would feel like cheap tokenism (Sherly Holmes was awesome!), but ignoring that...

It would still fall under similar arguments as to whether a game can be at fault for following the books or not.

Though I would totally play that game...

The way I saw it it was "They should make more female detective games"  "Why does Sherlock have to be a woman, you're being sexist" "Well maybe Sherlock SHOULD be a woman you sexist"
And now it's just noise

They should revive the Lara Bow series... or give the Nancy Drew series a bigger budget.

Both those games were awesome and the first Lara Bow game is so unique in its gameplay that it SHOULD have spawned off a point and click genre all on its own, it is honestly that genius!

But this my friend is why Point and Clicks are awesome!

[Urist Tilaturist]

I keep hearing you say that Urist but I just don't agree. Even the most serious and gritty settings can have fleeting moments of light hearted silliness.

Though I won't disagree with your statement that serious games often just end up Silly.

Diablo 3 attempted to be more serious, even so far as making fun of people who spoke about its lighter more whimsickle tone, and yet it is the most silly of the entire series and is incredibly silly by any standard... making their parody of Diablo 3 quite apt.

I expressed myself quite badly there. Of course there can be humour - a military setting without it would be wrong. What I really meant was nonsensical things like magical healing packs, bad physics and the presence of people who could never have been in that place and time in that role. I really should have said inauthentic instead of silly. Take the book Generation Kill for example - very authentic, but with lots of humour even in the face of death. It was made into a TV series as well.

[Loud Whispers]

I hate nothing more than a whimsical and oh so whacky character in a serious war setting. I grow angry when the game restricts you from killing such a character.

[Urist Tilaturist]

I hate nothing more than a whimsical and oh so whacky character in a serious war setting. I grow angry when the game restricts you from killing such a character.

...except that these characters do sometimes exist, and fragging them is bad form in most armies. Again, look at Generation Kill.

[smeeprocket]

My civil rights and equal representation is not politics. I hate it when people refer to it like that, like there is an acceptable alternative side in which one could argue "no really, women are inferior."

*Like there is an acceptable alternative side which isn't a misogynist strawoman.

What they HAVE to do is irrelevant to what they SHOULD or WOULD DRAW IN A BIGGER AUDIENCE to do.

Ah yes, pandering towards the mainstream; that raises quality! Well, it certainly doesn't intrinsically hurt. A Spielberg tends to be quality and crowd pleasing. The gaming industry does not have Spielberg. EA keeps killing them. Do not let EA take your money because they hide behind identity politics.

It doesn't look like a flame war, more like a conversation with everyone wearing earmuffs.

WHAT?

Earmuffs are cool.

My point being, my rights in general are not political, they are civil. Less in relationtion to representation in video games, though that is part of the whole, but more in relation to arguing that my civil rights are political implies that there is a counter argument. What would be the acceptable alternative argument against equality exactly?

Did you really just argue that appealing to more people would be mainstream and therefore would lower the quality of games? That's... for real?

[Graknorke]

Games can be as silly or serious as they want to be. If they want to be serious, they cannot have silly things in them, or they will become silly - which is not bad, just different. Misplaced sexes, races or any other group for the place and time is silly and stops the game from being serious, so it must be avoided if and only if that is the aim. Many games nowadays try to be serious and end up being silly, which is a poor state of affairs.

a) Inaccuracy isn't silly, it can be done deliberately and be presented seriously.
b) Silly isn't bad.

My civil rights and equal representation is not politics.

You have both civil and political rights. I'm not really sure what you're getting at when you keep saying this.

[Loud Whispers]

...except that these characters do sometimes exist, and fragging them is bad form in most armies. Again, look at Generation Kill.

I have not seen Generation Kill. I have seen British soldiers joking whilst under mortar fire. They weren't whacky. They were funny.

Comedy is absolutely one of the hardest things to write. It is one of the easiest things to fail in. When surmounted with such a formidable task, substituting humour with lolsorandum can seem appealing. It also makes the game unplayable.

[Neonivek]

Did you really just argue that appealing to more people would be mainstream and therefore would lower the quality of games? That's... for real?

Pandering to the mainstream does have a powerful tendency to sort of diminish the quality of games... or a lot of things in fact.

Mostly because mainstream usually means lowest common denominator.

[smeeprocket]

incidentally I don't want to make it sound like I think EA is a good company. They are terrible and should feel bad for the games they make. Ugh

Women do not play games because they are included, they play them in spite of not being included. Doesn't it make sense marketing wise to include more women and appeal to them for the $$$ that could be gained?

The problem we are seeing is a boy's club that caters to boys and no one else. Some people argue women should "earn" their place in the industry and then they get the right to be represented. Which is absurd, women were in the industry in good numbers before men crowded them out, and you shouldn't have to "earn" representation or equality. Men didn't have to. And frankly, men will hire who they will be comfortable working with, namely other men, along with any biases they may feel towards women's ability to program (whether consciously or subconsciously)

Neonivek: Are you saying appealing to women would be appealing to the lowest common denominator or just that if you appeal to women, standards need be lowered for... I don't understand the reason that there would be for that.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Selling out to the casual scrubs is rarely a good idea for game quality, but that is not a question of equality. Casual scrubs can be any colour or gender.

Let's look at what civil and political rights are:

Civil rights are your rights not to be discriminated against in employment and your freedom of expression. Political rights are your franchise and equality before the law. There are big overlaps between these, and they are all political issues in some way; saying that they are not ignores that they were hotly disputed for much of the 19th and 20th centuries. Political positions are often repugnant to some or even many; the opossite, discrimination, is acceptable to whom? Not you, or me, but it is acceptable to Boko Haram.

Absolutely, silly isn't bad, and humour is not the same as being wacky. But how can inaccuracy be deliberate and serious? I can understand the intention, but not how it could work in effect.