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[Neonivek]

Making women character too sexy is a cheap effect in videogame

Well the issue isn't so much making a female too sexy, we aren't dealing with fashion police in this case.

So much as using a female's sexiness against her or defining her entirely through her sex (unless that is the point of the game, but that is a entirely different entity)... Or focusing on her sexiness to detract from her other qualities.

----

As for Agarest of War

The Marriage And Sex aspect of the game is to me fine. You HAVE to have sex and if the woman you decide to have sex with doesn't like you... the game treats it sufficiently terribly. As well the game doesn't just have it happen it is a huge part of the games and informs everyone's characters, and every single female character actually goes through significant character development especially if you do go through their relationship.

Mind you that is just the one I saw letsplayed... but suffice it to say...

Dealing with Sex even Rape in a game that handles it pretty directly isn't the problem here. The problem is when games just have it for shock value.

Those skimpy outfits and the things you can make the female characters do though? Ok yeah. The Bath scenes? Yeah...

In fact outside the Bath Scenes, that I never watched... The game does almost nothing to sexualize the female characters outside their clothing... and usually the characters with less clothing have less to show, giving it more of a "I just like less clothes" vibe.

I don't know... I just find less issue with Agarest of War then I do Soul Calibur that made Taki's Panties visible through her pants.

Well at least the one I saw, which was the one with Weiss

[Phmcw]

Making women character too sexy is a cheap effect in videogame

Well the issue isn't so much making a female too sexy, we aren't dealing with fashion police in this case.

So much as using a female's sexiness against her or defining her entirely through her sex (unless that is the point of the game, but that is a entirely different entity)... Or focusing on her sexiness to detract from her other qualities.

If you use a chainmail bikini in your game, either you're usuing it ironically, like dragon's crown (whom I didn't play), or you send the message that you're selling a bad game through sexyness.

By "using a female's sexiness against her" you mean something like "Death by Sex" trope where having sex mark teens for death in horror movies?
I never noticed it in the games I played.

defining her entirely through her sex (unless that is the point of the game, but that is a entirely different entity)... Or focusing on her sexiness to detract from her other qualities.

No game I've played come to my mind.

I do know that they nearly killed the Tomb Raider's franchise doing exactly that, but when a studio goes that route it's a death sentence : gamers don't follow. The last game cut with that trend.

[Neonivek]

Chainmail bikini is specifically using a female's sexiness to detract from her other qualities.

[Phmcw]

Chainmail bikini is specifically using a female's sexiness to detract from her other qualities.

Yeah, Dragon's crown is the only game that I know that got away with using it, and it use it ironically on a muscle bound amazon (where it doesn't do much less sense than the traditional fur toga for the barbarian).

Do that seriously and your game is stillborn guaranteed (expet in Japan, who is Japan).

[scrdest]

Chainmail bikini is specifically using a female's sexiness to detract from her other qualities.

Yeah, Dragon's crown is the only game that I know that got away with using it, and it use it ironically on a muscle bound amazon (where it doesn't do much less sense than the traditional fur toga for the barbarian).

Do that seriously and your game is stillborn guaranteed (expet in Japan, who is Japan).

Heh, the ISO Barbarian Hero Loincloth was actually pretty explicitly a less intrusive-looking censor bar, so it didn't NEED to make sense. It just needed to hide dongers. Because let's be honest here, the thin strip of fur is the only thing separating FANTASY ART!!1one! from porn.

[Phmcw]

Chainmail bikini is specifically using a female's sexiness to detract from her other qualities.

Yeah, Dragon's crown is the only game that I know that got away with using it, and it use it ironically on a muscle bound amazon (where it doesn't do much less sense than the traditional fur toga for the barbarian).

Do that seriously and your game is stillborn guaranteed (expet in Japan, who is Japan).

Heh, the ISO Barbarian Hero Loincloth was actually pretty explicitly a less intrusive-looking censor bar, so it didn't NEED to make sense. It just needed to hide dongers. Because let's be honest here, the thin strip of fur is the only thing separating FANTASY ART!!1one! from porn.

Please don't let American know that the reason why their art is full of half nacked men isn't innocent, they didn't get that the spandex of their super-hero is VERY MUCH a sexual thing.


It always crack me up "it's a power fantasy"! Nope kiddo, superman's writer was actually a fetish artist and the homoerotism of its art work really well on teens. And worked ever since.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Barbarians in fur togas? Which kind of barbarians? If you mean the Germanic or Celtic sort, they should either be clad in bright or tartan wool trousers and shirts, with females in long dresses, or have stripped naked and war-painted for battle, and only for battle. They did not walk around wearing almost nothing all the time. Some native Americans and Maoris wore cloaks of some sort and not much else except loincloths, but I cannot really think of any tribes who dressed only in a fur toga - a toga is not the most practical garment to run around in for a barbarian (please tell me you actually know what a toga is). A loincloth makes a lot more sense.

Barbarians, male or female, stripping naked or near naked for battle is acceptable in some cases. Clothing does not stop weapons, and bare skin stops dirty clothing from infecting wounds. Nakedness also adds a lot to the army's fear factor, which is very important for barbarians.

Chainmail bikinis are STUPID STUPID STUPID, as we can hopefully agree here...

[TamerVirus]

Remember, Japan has and will continue to give zero shits about American feminism because it's not the culture there and won't be the culture there for the foreseeable future

[Urist Tilaturist]

Hence partly why their economy is stuck - because they have failed to mobilise women properly.

While there are many wonderful aspects to their culture, like Kurosawa's films and dir en grey, most of their games and cartoons are stupid and suck hard. Of course, I could say the same about the USA or anywhere else.

[TamerVirus]

I... don't think that's how economics work

[Reelya]

Er, is it just me or is most of that blood elf's stomach exposed by the armor?  Seems to contradict your point, or maybe I'm not understanding.
Also, here's the first google image search result for "blood elf in game":

What people consciously choose to wear in a game where you can customize your clothing piecemeal is a poor argument to say that that's the "only" choice. If it's the set game art and there's no other options, you might have a point, but not when you have massive levels of customization options. No-one is forced to look like that.

So the anti-WoW arguments seem to be "you're allowed to look sexy if you want, therefore it's sexist".

At this stage it's no longer an argument about what your own avatar is allowed to look like, but you're dictating to other people what their avatars are allowed to look like, which isn't cool. What if there's a girl who wants to look sexy, and another one who doesn't. Should we "slut shame" the first girl?

One argument might be that it's probably a straight guy only playing a sexy female avatar, and this ostracizes real women players. But the "no way you're a girl in real life" thing is something that women get hit with in online games, so perpetuating this based on whether the female avatar looks slutty or not is playing into that, and saying that women have to play avatars within certain bounds or we'll attack their gender / feminist credentials if they step out of line. Maybe that sexy female avatar is played by a straight guy, a straight girl, a lesbian/bisexual woman, a gay guy or a transgender guy. I'm sure all of these possibilities are common.

[Graknorke]

Haha, don't be silly, there is no 'want' in WoW.
You pick the thing that is most numerically efficient to you. Always.

[Rolan7]

(It turned out to be a flesh-colored cloth sun, that particular piece of clothing is pretty close to the male version.)

I don't think there's any customization that makes this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://img5.mmo.mmo4arab.com/wow/10_28/t13_armor_sets/t13_paladin_female.jpg

look like this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://img9.mmo.mmo4arab.com/wow/10_28/t13_armor_sets/t13_paladin_male.jpg

I *think* I've heard you can wear armor "aesthetically" to customize your appearance, so at least the situation isn't "show skin for stats". 

It's still weird, though.  It's like: "Congratulations on grinding for hours to get this shiny badass armor set!  Wait, you're female?  Okay hold on while we remove the midriff, or open up a boob window.  You're probably male anyway, as far as we care.  Oh, you're some kind of prude?  Then you don't get to show off this piece cool high-tier equipment.  Find another one."

Or maybe there is an option that lets you wear the complete version of the armor...  That would be amazing *and* realistic.  It's not like there isn't room for breasts in those massive male versions.

And people who want to dress sexily could still do that.  Everyone wins!

[Loud Whispers]

Remember, Japan has and will continue to give zero shits about American feminism because it's not the culture there and won't be the culture there for the foreseeable future

And they're already in a culture war with Korea and China that's been going on for eternity

[Reelya]

Hence partly why their economy is stuck - because they have failed to mobilise women properly.

While there are many wonderful aspects to their culture, like Kurosawa's films and dir en grey, most of their games and cartoons are stupid and suck hard. Of course, I could say the same about the USA or anywhere else.

There are far more comics and cartoons for women (usually with stories written by women) in Japan than in the West. The entire Shoujo (girls) + Josei (women's) category is pretty huge by itself. There are literally hundreds of separate anime franchises just in the shoujo category. And shoujo manga is a bottomless pit of content, 99% written by women. Sure, the pile of shows/comics for guys is larger, but just the women's cartoons (shoujo/josei deals with adult emotions, relationships and coming-of-age stories, it's not like "my little pony" or barbie shit) in Japan dwarfs several times over the entire US animation industry.

Your statement is pure ignorance of what's out there.

I don't read American comics because I don't like superheroes (I don't read the Japanese superpower stuff either). That leaves me with literally zero American comics I'm interested in, but a huge pile of Japanese stuff which is good.

Some example Japanese cartoons for non-retards: Bartender, Ristarante Paradiso, Mushishi

Some example American cartoons for non-retards: . I'm not counting Avatar or stuff like that either because it's aimed at 12 year olds. There really isn't any American non-kids animation that is philosophical except for very rare films like A Scanner Darkly.